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 Post subject: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:19 pm 
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The Ferryman
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Here's something that Jay and myself have been having a debate about.

I argue that a Base Line should actually be "a running log of all the measurements throughout the investigation that future Base Lines from subsequent investigations at the same location can be compared to"

where as Jay says "The baseline is ALWAYS the first reading (singular) you take and use that as a comparison .. as the baseline .. against all subsequent readings .."

What are everyone else's thoughts on this matter?

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Ohh .. do we start here now!! :)

To clarify .. You can have a million one baselines if you so wish .. but each baseline can only be compared to to subsequent and future readings under the same conditions. The first reading on the night is your starting point for the investigation which all future readings during the investigation are compared against and deviations from that base are noted. Its not a perfect representation of what is "normal" as "normal" is impossible to quantify if its your first and perhaps, one and only, visit to a location - but as you have nothing else to go on ... meh.

However, on future re-investigations of the same location - you're quite entitled, in fact, positively encouraged, to take the readings on a previous investigation and use them in some way to formulate a baseline to be used on this new investigation - maybe an average of the entire night or some other method you decide upon. As long as the conditions are similar. If the 1st investigation took place in the height of summer and the second in the depths of winter - then its meaningless and you're better off taking a brand new baseline and use it for that nights investigation and future investigations that again have similar conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:46 pm 
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OK I'll post here too.

A baseline is meant to be a mean line in a given set of circumstances. As we cannot contorl the atmosphere inside a building to call a set of readings at the start of an investigation a baseline is wrong. Its simply a first log of available data.
During the night the building will continue to cool, our presence in the building may affect the relative humidity so these initial readings have no place being called a baseline.

Yes they can help build a picture of what happened that night, but compare it to what? custard? Jam rolly polly? great uncle carstairs right nostril hair? The data is completely meanignless on the big picture. Its simply a snapshot in time and not a baseline at all.

We would need a constant at least. A control. If we were to setup a HQ within the building and take that as our control, we then have data to compare the other temp readings to. The control COULD be called a baseline because we are comparing our other readings to that. Having 10 locations and saying thats a baseline is wrong, because we have nothing to compare it to.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm 
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A snapshot in time ... a fixed reference point. Which is a baseline.

After an investigation, yes - recalculate the baseline to be used on future investigations. But when you start off on minute 1, investigation 1 .. theres nothing else to go on and meaningless as it is .. its still a baseline.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Jay wrote:
A snapshot in time ... a fixed reference point. Which is a baseline.

After an investigation, yes - recalculate the baseline to be used on future investigations. But when you start off on minute 1, investigation 1 .. theres nothing else to go on and meaningless as it is .. its still a baseline.



No, we need a constant. If we have 10 thermometers, we send 9 out to locations and keep one back at base, that becomes our baseline.
If we put all 10 out in locations, we are we supposed to compare the readings too?
We dont have a mean or an average because temp can fluctuate room to room, or from one side of a building to another. It will always be warmer upstairs than downstairs etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:57 pm 
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We seem to agree on most of the points that you've said Jay just on the fact that I say a 'Base line' should be a running log of the invo and you think it should be a fixed point at the start.

You need to have separate running baselines for all vigil areas in a location Anth in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:04 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
We seem to agree on most of the points that you've said Jay just on the fact that I say a 'Base line' should be a running log of the invo and you think it should be a fixed point at the start.

You need to have separate running baselines for all vigil areas in a location Anth in my opinion.


I cant see what that would achieve. Well apart from a load of data that no one is going to look twice at.

We COULD plot the details on a graph Temp/time and if we were accurate enough to record the times we could link the temp fluctuations with apaprent activity.

But again, we have little to compare to, a mean average for the entire building perhaps, but that doesnt mean that one room is going to be constantly significantly warmer or colder than the others.
If we were to set a control in the cnetre of the building in an area not being investigated, we can then compare everything to our control. We can work out the pattern of temp in the entire building if we need to, but we have to have at least ONE constant.

I still object to the word baseline.....meanline would be more appropriate in my oppinion.
I'm actually with Dok on this though. But we have to be carefull what we conclude from the data. A running mean line is OK, but again compared to what? Snot? wee? the temperature of the back of my neck?
This Also leads us to the correct and proper placement of the measuring devices.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:11 pm 
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A control is different to a baseline. Nothing wrong with the suggestion of keeping a control (or using the same thermometer say, to measure the temperature of every room) but thats not a baseline.

A baseline, meaningless or not, is the start point of investigation. Forgive my use of the word - its whats "normal". Now, we have nothing else to compare with to determine whats normal on a first-time invo so, as we agree, its meaningless in the context of that nights investigation. But a start point, a reference point - meaningless or not - is still a baseline.

By changing the baseline reading throughout the night for that nights investigation only, you're constantly changing the starting point of the investigation. Your constantly moving the goal post. By taking the "snapshot in time" within a room (the baseline) before any experiments, before any Spoon Benders get in there, before any Ouija Boards, before any Trigger Objects are set up, before anything whatsoever happens to try to induce anything paranormal - you've got something to compare against once the experiments, Spoon Bending and Possessions take place.

Any deviation from that baseline during the night, needs to be investigated and explained. It could be "... its now 3am in the morning" .. it could be ".. theres 10 people in the room .." .. but thats the investigation part of investigating. At least with that first reading of the night theres something to compare against when it was just a random reading at the start of the night and nothing was doing in trying to open a Vortex to Hell.

Now a case could be put forward for taking a number of readings over the course of a hour - BEFORE any investigating / spoon bending etc takes place and use the average of those readings as your base if you wish .. but the key word is BEFORE anything occurs which could look to induce anything paranormal.

Its not perfect for a number of reasons - readings will change naturally during the night, people will be moving about etc etc .. buts its something .. even meaningless .. but its something.

Then .. take your results AFTER the investigation and do whatever jiggery-pokery on them as you wish and bring them to the next investigation you do at that place .. now, you do have a "proper" baseline to compare. But on that first night - shit or not - that first reading is still your baseline, whether we like it or not, because you don't have anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:26 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
We seem to agree on most of the points that you've said Jay just on the fact that I say a 'Base line' should be a running log of the invo and you think it should be a fixed point at the start.

You need to have separate running baselines for all vigil areas in a location Anth in my opinion.


Your missing the point though.. A baseline is took BEFORE anything else happens on a night. You can't change your baseline during the night because events have already taken place that could effect that new baseline. We could have opened a vortex to hell and not be aware of it - yet that new reading you've took with Satan pissing in the room is now becoming your baseline for the night.

The baseline is what is took BEFORE any "real" investigation takes place. Its your Starting Point. In truth, we're not really interested in a natural curve downwards in temperature, say, from that starting point as the night progresses .. we're looking for the swings. A room temperature could easily drop 15% over the course of a night from the baseline that was took (depending on the season) .. thats fine .. its in the expected "norms" depending on the season and starting conditions .. its irrelevent what the actual figure was - the absolute number IS meaningless - its what falls outside of the expected norm thats important.

We're really looking for a 40% "spike" or "trough" over a shortish period of time compared to the baseline that was took at the beginning of the night. The number is meaningless - its the deviations from that number which are important. This is why the baseline at the beginning of the invo - number meaningless or not - is still important and should be fixed.

If you get porky and think you should diet to lose weight - you note the point that your weight has got to : 40 stone .. this is your baseline .. your point of referemce .. its not your "normal" weight because baseline doesn't mean "normal" - it might be "Normal" at that given point, but its not "normal" over the whole course of your life.

A month into your diet, you're down to 39 stone .. you've lost 1 stone .. woo! .. this now doesn't become your new baseline because your diet didn't start today (or in whatever fashion you create a new baseline), it started a month back .. when you were 40 stone .. 6 months later, you're 30 stone .. you've lost 10 stone .. not 9 stone which is what your new baseline would say you've lost. Changing baselines doesn't give an accurate result .. it screws your result set.

Try throw a bit of paper into a bin from 10 foot away .. you manage to "score" on your 10th attempt - we don't whoop and holla saying "Yeah! 1 out of 1! 100% record!" .. the result is skewed .. the reality is 1 in 10 .. Changing your baseline and saying the previous 9 attempts "didn't really count - THIS is the new baseline and it really starts now" (because thats what your doing when you change your point of reference) gives wonky results.

Remember : Baseline doesn't equal "normal" despite what some might try and convince us of and despite us using the word "normal" out of laziness. Baseline means point of reference and what all deviations are compared against. The actual number is meaningless. Having the baseline move during an investigation is having the point of reference change - when you do that you lose sight of where you started.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:17 am 
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Jay wrote:
Your missing the point though.. A baseline is took BEFORE anything else happens on a night. You can't change your baseline during the night because events have already taken place that could effect that new baseline. We could have opened a vortex to hell and not be aware of it - yet that new reading you've took with Satan pissing in the room is now becoming your baseline for the night.


I really don't think I am missing the point, I just don't agree with it. What a baseline is trying to do is assess what is 'normal'. The only way to do that is to monitor the baseline through the entire investigation and then repeat it again and again under the same conditions on subsequent visits. The baselines can then be compared and anomalies identified.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:09 am 
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:)

A Baseline has nothing to do with whats "normal" .. As I said above, its our own "laziness" with words when we associate "normal" with "baseline" .. A baseline is nothing more than a Point Of Reference which is what I said in my very first post in the "Other Place" ... thats it .. something that all future readings are compared to. "Normal" is impossible to quantify because theres a million and one variables that we're not aware of.

Baseline is simply : This is what our data showed before our investigation started, before we trumped around the building in number, before we experimented, before the Spoon Benders got to work, before we opened a Vortex To Hell, before WE influenced the location in any way shape and form ...

And thats it. No normal in it anywhere.

Come the end of investigation - you marry up your actions / experiments / events that took place with further readings that are taken and then compare it to the baseline to see how those actions / experiments / events could of affecred what your measuring.

By taking into account things that could be "expected" like a gradual drop in temperature, for instance, as a night progressess .. what you're left with is are anomolous readings that, hopefully, match up with any recorded activity.

If you don't know what your baseline is .. its impossible to know where you are. For instance .. you record a baseline temperature at 10pm of 20c BEFORE investigation start ... and you record the temperature at 4am in the same location of 17c AFTER investigation end .. you can extrapolate that the average "natural" temperature drop of the location is 0.5c per hour. Anything that falls outside of that margin at anytime - needs investigating.

If you don't have a baseline .. a point of reference .. or it changes as a night progresses .. then its impossible to calculate that with any accuracy. Ok, it might not make much difference if theres only half a dozen readings a night - but if 100s are being taking - then it becomes important.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:12 am 
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I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. How can a 'line' be made up of a single point anyway, that would just be a 'base dot' ;)

Well at least ASSAP, The Society for Psychical Research and ParaScience agree with me, so if I am incorrect then I'm in good company.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:21 am 
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Haha .. ASSAP changing the definition of words to suit is no basis for argument .. :)

ASSAP are wrong. Typical bloody ghost hunting groups employing psuedo-scientific means of doing things .. ;) .. theres nothing wrong with doing what you suggest or using the data in the way you say .. but its not a baseline .. or a basedot ... or a basepoint ..

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 am 
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:P

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:27 am 
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Lets move on now ....

Blue Oblongs falling into Loch Ness ... Nessie's alien brothers coming to take Him home???

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:31 am 
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Don't be silly, Nessie only has sisters.

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:32 am 
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Ahhh .. never knew that ... spooky!

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:42 pm 
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I'm just glad you didn't ask me this question on Sunday...! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:47 pm 
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We're just thinking about ways to test people out .. expect similar in the future .. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Plus the 'initiation ritual'

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:24 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
Plus the 'initiation ritual'



*shudders*


I've seen family ness and nessie has brothers too.....Including sportyness and ferociousness.


I have proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxjqMZd-BVE

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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:49 am 
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Jay wrote:
We're just thinking about ways to test people out .. expect similar in the future .. ;)
doktor_phibes wrote:
Plus the 'initiation ritual'

:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:31 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Base Line readings
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Wodenborn wrote:
if it is to mean anything readings have to be constantly taken - and not just over the course of a single investigation.


Ooo, don't set Jay off again.

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