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 Post subject: Sigil Magick
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:36 am 
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I went through a stage not long ago when I was seriously looking into the Occult and Magick in general.

Has anybody actually read an of the books and grimoires that are out there? Spend 20 minutes reading anything of Aleister Crowley and you'll see how crazy it can all be .. however .. thats not to say its all pie in the sky and involves sacrificing virgins and copulating with goats ..

I won't go into all the details here as there is a pile of it and goes really deep, but a lot of the premise behind Magick comes from the following statement :

"We create the reality that we believe"

Which is some mumbo-jumbo way of saying :

If you believe that your always unlucky with money - you always will be
If you believe you always attract the wrong sort of guy/girl - you always will
If you have a negative attitude to life - you'll always have negative things happen
Whereas, If you have a positive attitude to life - you'll always have positive things happen

etc etc

Not there is some scientific basis in this when you start to look into Quantum Phsyics but talking about all that here will just make me look silly. Suffice is : A lot of Quantum Physics experiments produce results that we're expected by the experimenter (same experiment, different experimenter - different results). It has to do with something that Physicists don't like talking about : Psi Variables.

Anyways, a practical way of putting this into practice is through Sigil Magick. You create a symbolic representation of something you want to happen : It may be to get a new job, or meet a new partner, or to have money come onto your life - whatever

And then attempt to get yourself into a state of gnosis (getting yourself into a mental state where your concious mind steps aside allowing the un-concious mind to be open to influence - in this case, to the sigil).

This can be achieved through many ways the simplest and easiest (although not the best) is through meditation. At the point when you enter a trance - if you are focusing on the sigil - bang - it goes straight into the sub-concious and it begins to work it's magick.

Or so the theory goes : I'm still broke .. :cry:

Hehe .. nah .. the theory is spot on. Whether you use Sigils or other forms of magick - or come at it from a purely scientific angle ... the simple truth is : "We DO create the reality we believe"

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:24 am 
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yes jay spot on ---- the mind is very powerful...............its all down to positive thinking!! if u imagen things comming to u everynight really see it...it will happen......obvisiouly with-in reason......say that new house u want, or see yourself in the ideal job etc its all very possible and yeah this is like a simple imagination spell!! --- involving colour helps too. ---- thing is though when it comes to witch craft - spells etc.....u have to be very careful what you wish for, as if you have looked into it abit like me u will know everything comes back to u 3 times......thats why you should never cast harm on anyone or even send out negitive thoughts about people eg "god i wish he'd drop dead!" if u do that u are sending negitive thougths out to the universe......----- well thats wot i read anyway! i have books on all kinds! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:08 am 
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Bah .. the three-fold law! Thats mainly to do with Wicca and lets just say I'm not a great fan of Wicca - it's too fluffy bunny for me - even the Magick and Ritual within Wicca has been sanitised ...

But certainly, believe in something strongly enough .. it WILL happen .. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Sigil Magick
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Jay wrote:
...involves sacrificing virgins and copulating with goats ..


You're not a member of New Labour ...by any chance?

Sceptic.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:53 pm 
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GAH!!

Mind you tho - I do hear that goes on at Labour HQ - and much worse of course. :lol:

But to answer the question : I think I would rather be publicly filmed copulating with goats whilst worrying how to solve a problem like Maria, than associate myself with any scum political party!!!! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Jay wrote:
I think I would rather be publicly filmed copulating with goats whilst worrying how to solve a problem like Maria, than associate myself with any scum political party!!!! :mrgreen:


So ...you're a Liberal Democrat then?

Sceptic.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:19 pm 
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EEEK!!!

Grab a camera and find me a goat!!!!

:shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:07 am 
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lol


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:25 am 
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Your funny with your 'lol's .. seriously .. half of your posts must just consist of just 'lol'!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:44 pm 
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lol :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:38 am 
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she still does them now as well lol

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:08 pm 
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That was the problem with Crawley and Anton le vey.

There is so much bumf added around what they were doing, so much spin, that acurate reporting of what they did was impossible.

Crawley for one courted publicity, there has been reports since his death that a house he owned in, if I remember correctly, Chelsea, has some amazing paranormal phenomena.

Le Vey seemed to court controversy too, especially in his own writings which seemed to be lifted from works by other authors.

Perhaps Crawley was nothing more than a counjeror


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Anth wrote:
That was the problem with Crawley and Anton le vey.

There is so much bumf added around what they were doing, so much spin, that acurate reporting of what they did was impossible.

Crawley for one courted publicity, there has been reports since his death that a house he owned in, if I remember correctly, Chelsea, has some amazing paranormal phenomena.

Le Vey seemed to court controversy too, especially in his own writings which seemed to be lifted from works by other authors.

Perhaps Crawley was nothing more than a counjeror


I take it you mean Crowley .. :wink:

Was never really a fan of Le Vey or the whole Church of Satan thing as it was all made out to be anti-Christianity. Contrary to popular belief, 'Satan' has nothing to do with Christianity and He was only added into the bible in the 13th century.

Think Le Vey wanted to just shock people and create an anti-establishment cult at a time when that was en-vogue - hippy movement, anti-war (Vietnam) protests etc. No co-incidence that the Church Of Satan was based out of San Francisco.

In saying that tho - like all 'religions' and philosophies - what Le Vey wrote about had its foundations in solid Magick. Its irrelevant really what we may believe in, our moral standpoint, or whether its real or not - there are many people practising it and have done through the centuries - what they believe is what matters as it effects us all (just look at all the occult symbology in our every day lives - especially in advertising or in street maps to see how we're affected by it).

I wouldn't dismiss Crowley as a conjurer. In Magickal circles - again regardless of whatever our own moral standpoint may be - the guy was an undoubted genius. Yes - a little flawed, a little 'sick' - but a genius.

He (from a magickal perspective) wrote the equivilant of the Christian bible in his lifetime - something that took numerous biblical scholars centuries to put together with Christianity. He created numerous versions of Magick that changed Occult practices for ever (such as Thelama) and brought about the birth of Chaos Magick (which is where Sigil Magick comes from). He also created and wrote the rituals for Freemasonary that are practiced by the rich and powerful today, developed the Golden Dawn magick system and made it more powerful (also such things as A:A and others), and through his student - Gerald Gardiner - created Wicca which claims itself to be the fastest growing "religion" in the world today. A little more than a mere conjurer, me thinks.

Whether people dress up in robes, have wild sex orgies, wave their arms around screaming, do Sigil Magick, implement the Law of Attraction into their lives or just are positive thinkers - they are doing what all Magickal practices claim as their purpose : "Affecting change in the enviroment through the power of thought".

How much change you want depends on how deep you get into it.

Crowley went the full hog and upset a few people .. it happens I guess.

As ghost investigators - we do a lot of things popularised and 'taught' by Crowley.

A seance, for instance, is the creation of a Magickal Circle, powering the circle with energy and then attempting to communcate with 'entities' from elsewhere.

When its done right - it works. When its done wrong (90% of the time as seen on shite like MH) - it doesn't work.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:02 pm 
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Crowley ;) though as intelligent as he may be, was really nothing but a sham.

I think ozzy described him best in the song mr crowley.

Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?
Oh, Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead?
Your life style to me seemed so tragic
With the thrill of it all
You fooled all the people with magic
Yeah, you waited on Satan's door

Mr. Charming, did you think you were pure?
Mr. Alarming, in nocturnal rapport
Uncovering things that were sacred
Manifest on this Earth
Conceived in the eye of a secret
And they scattered the afterbirth

Mr. Crowley, won't you ride my white horse?
Mr. Crowley, it's symbolic, of course
Approaching a time that is classic
I hear that maiden's call
Approaching a time that is drastic
Standing with their backs to the wall

Was it polemically sent
l want to know what you meant
I want to know, I want to know what you meant, yeah


My personal belief is that he was intelligent for his writtings, even though there IS a rather racial tint to them, yes he wrote book after book on his teachings, he refined Magickal practices. But was he truelly a genius? or has there been too much legned wrapped around him?

I agree with le vey, he was just in it to go against the system. but again, his writings and teachings are fairly epic too.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:09 pm 
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Ha! As much as I like Ozzy - the poor bloke doesn't know what day it is half of the time - Certainly not in his hay-day when he'd be drunk, stoned and high for weeks on end. :lol:

Again tho - it doesn't matter what we may or not believe (or Ozzy) - the influence the guy had is whats important - things that effect us all today on a day to day basis one way or the other.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:19 pm 
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It is interesting, I have a friend who is deeply into the occult. He goes nuts if i mention crowley in his presence. He is terrified of the guys name.

And because I am an evil SOB I am always winding him up, playing that ozzy song etc. :)

it strikes me as odd that this guy, will perform occult practices and yet fear the name of crowley, makes me wonder what happened or why he feels like that.

This guy is the one that lodged in the room of the "haunted" house in Billingham, the guy who's laptop I removed the guts from prior to it being turned on!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:06 pm 
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There is a lot of bad press surrounding Crowley - a lot of it BS and a lot of it he played up to for a laugh.

For instance, he only started calling himself "The Beast" because a New York paper heralded his arrival in New York with the headlines "The Beast Comes To New York" - he found it amusing and so would introduce himself to people as "The Beast 666".

Yes - he allegedly did bad stuff. There is the story where its said he got his Mistress to have sex with a goat and at the point of the goats orgasm, he decapitated it and drank its blood.

How true that is, I don't know - maybe its just a myth surrounding him. Now a lot of people may squirm at that and call him "bad" or "evil" (if its a true story) - but as I mentioned above - Crowley went full on with things, he wanted to push boundaries to the limits in his exploration of the Occult and Magick.

Tossing morals aside one moment - I know exactly why Crowley did that (again if its true!) from a magickal perspective.

Most people live in a very sanitized world. We have our morals (many of which are conditioned into us and aren't 'ours' in the strictest sense) and so when someone like Crowley comes along who believed such things prevented us from discovering who and what we really are - people are naturally going to be up in arms about it.

Its the basis of what Satanism is all about (hence another reason why Crowley gets a bad name). Satanism isn't about worshipping Satan - a true Satanist doesn't even believe in Satan - its about serving your own self-interests. If you want to stuff you face with 1000 cream buns do it - fuck what others think. If you want to have a wild sex orgy with 6 (willing) virgins - go ahead, don't give a damn what the moral guardians of society may think of you.

Take Wicca - Most Wiccans don't know the first thing about what they do. Today - its all fluffy bunny stuff - progressively through the years some kid or another has watched Sabrina the Teenage Witch or Charmed on TV and thought that's cool - typed "witches" into Google and a page on Wicca has come up and they've got into it.

The original form of Wicca first put out be Gerald Gardener in 1948 would get most Wiccans today running a mile - its been sanitized so much today so as to make it popular. Try talking to the majority of Wiccans today about Traditional Wicca and they'll think your talking a different language.

Wicca itself came about as a sanitized version of what Crowley had been teaching all his life - Gardener (being a student of Crowley) wanted to popularise what had been taught in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and so combined various Pagan and Druidic beliefs with Golden Dawn ritual, to create a nature based system.

Then all of a sudden what Crowley had been doing and promoting became popular with the masses. It happens with a lot of things - something gets a bad press, so give it a different name and market it different and everyone suddenly loves it.

So the sanitized version has become even more sanitized as its popularity increased. And no wonder people say "its great, a lot of nice people and we have a good time - the Magick doesn't work mind, but hey, can't have everything!"

Yes - Crowley had a bad press - justified or not - but so many people involved in the occult are ignorant of its origins and the links of what they do today and its links to Crowley.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:33 pm 
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lol @ anth and Jay. Im not sure who this guy is your talking about might try and find out a bit more about him. I dont know what i think about the Occult etc, it can be about many things to me it means witchcraft, Demons stuff like that.
i think its just the unknown and the not understood type of thing.
Is there really such a thing as Witchcraft? Magic spells, curses or is it that we believe this through films, books and what we have been told when we were younger and its something what is not really discussed a lot.

I know at our last Investigation the guy said the bed in the bedroom is cursed and anyone who sits on it well would be cursed, so two of us sat on the bed....Are we Cursed? Or again is it that some peolpe would believe what we are told and im sure for him it was a story what has been passed down from generation to generation. Interesting subject though.


Last edited by Andrea on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:07 pm 
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The Occult got its bad rep initially through the Church that wanted to supress eosteric information in the hands of the average Joes and then, modern day, through bad press where one or two arseholes pushed the limits beyond what most would find acceptable.

In truth - it crosses many subjects. The study of the Paranormal is just one branch of the occult. As I mentioned earlier - when you sit down to do a seance, your just doing a Magickal Ritual which has its origins within the occult.

The thing is tho - like ghosts - many people just dismiss things like this out of hand as it doesn't fit in with their belief system. Because we aren't overtly bombarded with things on a day to day basis we get into a mode of "out of sight, out of mind" and then when something comes along and challenges our perceptions - we bury our head in the sand and deny its existence.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:59 pm 
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The belief system some people have can have devastating effects. Take for example the Haitians. From what I understand, Voodoo, and I quote Wikipedia - "The core functions of Voodoo are to explain the forces of the universe, influence those forces, and influence human behavior. Voodoo's oral tradition of faith stories carries genealogy, history and fables to succeeding generations. Adherents honor deities and venerate ancient and recent ancestors." Seems quite reasonable and interesting as far as religions go.

Haitians are brought up believing that voodoo is a very real and dangerous thing if abused, like a lot of religions. It has been practised for hundreds of years, it is a lifestyle ingrained into the history of the people and the media had publicised it around the world to be evil, completely missing out the original concept and benefits. Now people think of voodoo as creating zombies and sticking pins in effigies a la James Bond - Live and Let Die!

Additionally, if a believer thinks they have a curse upon them, quite often they bring about their own injury or death through panicking about the consequences rather than the curse itself.

It is sad that so many old religions have fallen foul of the 'accepted' church and demonised when in fact if you read about them, they are more humanist and appealing to people than Christianity and Catholicism. Too much power rests with the church and the pope's every word. They are dangerous people with too much say and influence. After all the church is just a large cult!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:11 pm 
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Interesting read from Jay and Tc. Yeah seems like if you believe in something so much then its gonna happen. Example at Investigations lets say If a person believes and their expectations are so high then it wouldnt surprise me at all if they had some sort of experience, but on the other hand if ya not a total believer and go there with an open mind and no expectations at all which is something we should all do then it would be very Interesting if those people experienced something even though its not paranormal. Hmm Interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:00 am 
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Andrea wrote:
Interesting read from Jay and Tc. Yeah seems like if you believe in something so much then its gonna happen. Example at Investigations lets say If a person believes and their expectations are so high then it wouldnt surprise me at all if they had some sort of experience, but on the other hand if ya not a total believer and go there with an open mind and no expectations at all which is something we should all do then it would be very Interesting if those people experienced something even though its not paranormal. Hmm Interesting.



The problem is, this state of open mindedness is not easy to achieve. It is so hard to overcome pre-conceptions of a place, event or even a person.

It human uniqeness at its best, we are conditioned to believe or not believe in, for example, the paranormal. It would all depend on our upbringing, social groups and to a large extent peer pressure.

As a child, probably more likely early teens, I was aware of my aunties psychic ability, I was aware of a pressence in her house. Perhaps thats why I can believe in the paranormal, however my scpticism, even though its only a very small part of my beliefs, comes from my interst in physics and the therories and so on from that.

So although i dont often sit on the fence, I will commit one way or another, I feel I have a fairly open minded approach to most things, in that I can believe an experience could be paranormal once I have satisfied myself there is no other explanation.

Once you have eliminated everything else, what is left, no matter how ridiculous is probably the true answer.

On to the other things here, I know of people who say they practice wiccan magik. to me these people are the new "hippies" its more about a lifestyle choice than anything else, which tends to confirm what Jay was saying, that if the knew the true wiccan way they would probably be horrified.

Some wiccan ceremonies do seem quite ideal, the wiccan hand fastening ceremony that is a direct replacement for marriage is actually quite a nice ceremony, and has deep meaning. This kind of appeals to me, as I am an agnostic. Although i tend to say I dont believe in religion.
Dispite this, i took my marriage vows before god in a methodist church. This was more for my wife than anything else, however it does make me question whether I am being hypocritical in this sense. Do i truelly have to believe in god, to take my vows before him/her? or does it mean more for my wife that she actually got me to enter a church?

I have a huge dislaike for religious buildings and it takes a lot for me to cross their thresh hold. I feel deeply uncomfortable in them, and I have once suffered a panic attack from this. Can anyone explain this? Could it be because I have an interest in the occult and this is a higher entities way of showing displeasure?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:38 am 
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I may as well add something to this debate. I describe myself as a Wiccan and I follow an Alexandrian path which is modified from Gardenarian Wicca. I don't feel that its fair to say that most followers of Wicca are ignorant to it's origins. I know tons of Wiccans who are very who are very knowledgeable on the subject and have been practicing the Craft for years. Most of them get annoyed with all the 'fluffy' stuff that seems to be around these days but I don't think that it is doing any real harm. There are a lot of worse things that teenagers looking for a spiritual path in life can get into, and if these 'fluffy' books manage to hold their interest, then they may be inspired to seek out and read more classic Wiccan texts.

Many religions are sanitised over the years to make them more marketable to the masses and Wicca is no exception, but as long as there is a good foundation to it, I don't really see it as a bad thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:31 pm 
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The 'fluffy' way isn't necessarily bad - whatever floats peoples boat - but where the problems arise with something like this - and it isn't necessarily limited to Wicca - is the lack of information thats available to people.

People can chose whatever path they chose, whats right for them - I don't have a problem with that, but I'm a big believer that people should have access to all the information - warts and all. Only then can they make a true and reasoned decision - anything else is both diluted and someone elses version who may have their own agenda.

So for instance, as I mentioned above, a somewhat knowledgeable 'fluffy' could genuinely claim to be a Wiccan - fine - yet there'd turn white and be aghast and flatly deny it when they are linked into Crowley, like Anth's buddy (not saying he's a fluffy!!) as perhaps they don't have all the info thats to be had, yet still try and claim some moral high-ground by claiming Crowley was 'evil' yet they are not - no, their doing the same thing just under a different name and a few of the methods tweaked.

I mentioned elsewhere on here how a seance done by a medium is exactly the same, in principle, as to what goes on in a magickal circle whether is Wiccan, Hermetic, Christian :wink: or Satanic in nature .. Spiritualists would shake their head like the Churchill dog and flatly deny it ..

Thats because at the core of all these things the techniques and principles are exactly the same - all thats changed over the centuries are the words both used during ceremony and used to describe whats being done.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:35 pm 
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yep same kinda thing, diff beliefs or diff way around it -- but same intentions :wink: guess its what feels right for that person :wink:


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