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 Post subject: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:08 am 
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The Ferryman
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Pondered this question tonight after reading something on the BBC website (link isn't relevant but I'll include it anyway .. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14886421)

To quote the important bit and the bit that inspired this post, from the article :

Quote:
Consciousness may be the last remaining mystery for science


Now this isn't a post about Consciousness, but the statement that Consciousness MAY BE the LAST remaining mystery for science.

Is it? is XXX the LAST remaining mystery? Do we know everything else?

Now I know its impossible to know about something that you don't know about, that you don't know exists yet - but do we know everything else?

I have a part of me that says "Yes" - everything else we learn as we progress is just an improvement on something else we already know. I might respond to this post in 6 years time with a new, super-fast, brain operated computer - but thats just an advancement on what we already know about computers where we've learnt better and faster ways of doing things. Its nothing "new".

We know about Molecules and Atoms. We know about Positrons and Electrons. We know about Quarks and Gluon's. We know about planets and stars and galaxies and black holes. We might not be able to exactly tell how these and other things work, but we know enough about them to at least work on the problems we face.

Other than consciousness - is there anything else thats a real mystery where we have not even a smidgen of a an idea about what it is or how it works ...

... or .. Do we know "everything"?

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:14 am 
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Well I'm certain that we don't know everything.

Your post reminded me of a famous quote from Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:15 am 
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hmm given we know more about the solar system than the oceans, i'd say no we dont.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:08 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
Well I'm certain that we don't know everything.

Your post reminded me of a famous quote from Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."


In someways, thats a true statement though .. When was the last time you came across something totally and completely new that you'd never seen the like of before?

We could say back in 1899 .. I don't know .. a Computer .. but Charles Babbage invented the computer back in 1700 odd .. A mobile phone? Just an advancement on the idea of the telegram. A space rocket? Again, the Wright Brothers on Acid.

Yes, we'll always come up with better ideas and inventions that appear to be something brand new, but they aren't really once you strip away the gloss - they are just the next step of something that went before so we could of indeed have invented everything that we could invent - just in the future we'll make it better, faster and more refined.

Which again is the crux of my original post : Do we know everything? Not - expert on them (like Anths suggestion in regards the Oceans). But we know the basic functions at least of everything there is to know (except Consciousness if that article is to be believed).

We know about the very building blocks of matter and so there isn't anything in the material world that we couldn't explain. We know about the full Electro-Magnetic Spectrum - so theres "invisible" things covered.

Is all thats left Consciousness? Is that where ghosts and ghoulies live?

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Do we know if 'Ghosties and Ghoulies' exist though Jay?

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:18 pm 
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We don't know everything about ghosts or life after death. That said, we have to accept they exist before adding to any knowledge we might have about them i suppose..

Maybe that's why we are so fascinated by things ethereal and esoteric, because they are not scientifically accepted, and so by that definition, are fair game for people who look beyond that which is accepted. In other words, paranormal geeks and slightly strange people, of which I class myself as one... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:36 pm 
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If you are saying that when one idea or invention leads to another it's nothing new Jay, then haven't we ALWAYS known everything in that case?

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Am not saying one idea has ALWAYS led to another .. the first time man lifted a stone and thought "Hey, I can some fuckers skull in with this" was a leap that had never been witnessed before and that has led along the path, intersecting with other leaps, to a Nuclear Weapon .. The first time man attempted to float was another leap .. the first attempt at flight .. the first attempt to create an engine .. the first computer .. the first attempt to communicate long distances the first time we saw an atom .. the first time we split it ... which altogether, with everything else, led you're buddy in the patent office to claim what he did .. There are no more boundaries .. no leaps (ok ok, can't comment on what we don't know) - but theres nothing else in the universe that we're aware of that we know nothing about - we .. know .. everything .. (other than about consciousness as in that article) .. and we've invented something in regards of everything .. YES .. we'll make a better design .. make it faster, smaller, lighter .. we'll find better ways of doing things .. we'll even find different angles to go down (a "new" invention but really its just an "old" invention jazzed up) but all of that comes off the back of us knowing everything there is to know ..

... That we're aware of.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:56 pm 
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Jay wrote:
ok ok, can't comment on what we don't know

I rest my case :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:18 am 
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Hah .. thats the point tho - there hasn't really been a "new" discovery in the world since Quantum Physics .. A whole new branch of physics that we didn't know existed. That was .. circa 80 years back .. tho the theory was about 80 year earier. Yet around that time we discovered nigh on everything in Science today .. there are no new horizons .. so much so that we're now trying to come up with the Theory Of Everything that links all the forces of nature together (weak / strong nuclear, gravity, electro-magnetism) and combining Quantum and Newtonian physics together. Basically, crossing the t's and dotting the i's. Theres nothing else. Even the things we have no "proof" or "evidence" of, the physics tells us it "should" be there and we're looking.

.. we might not be able to apply what we know or fully understand it, but we know it.

Other than consciousness, theres nothing else in the observable (and unobservable) universe that can't begin to be explained by what we already know. Unless they are "real" and tied in with consciousness (which to me, if they do exist, is where they are), ghosts can be explained with psychology or with physics for instance.

Hence WHY we've gone 150 years WITHOUT a completely new branch of research. Cos we already know everything that, at the least, should be there even if we don't know for certain yet that it is.

Just a point - this goes against my own way of thinking. I'm not arguing "for" the point I'm putting forward here, its just a current Thought Experiment on my part to see if any basis exists to that argument. I do tend to think I agree with it a lot more than I thought I did originally the more I think on it, but I'd still like a little bend to allow the wacky to exist in there!!

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:54 am 
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what about matter and anti-matter, we still are investigating that.
What about time and space distortion around black holes?

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:58 pm 
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All built upon the foundations of quantum physics .. we might not understand the physics fully yet .. but the answers to those questions have their roots in the "basics" of what we already know.

Don't be reading this wrong - I'm not saying we KNOW everything .. I'm saying we "know" everything .. there is a subtle difference which I probably can't get across on a forum. Take Consciousness which sparked this with me ... there is NOTHING thats gone before that even begins to explain it. It just "is" as far as we know. Time Distortion or Anti-Matter - we know about Matter so we can work on the problem of Anti-Matter with that as a basis - we know what we have to do to understand it even if we currently don't understand it fully.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:19 am 
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What about the things we don't know that we don't know yet..? :?

For arguments sake, if we assume that Aliens exist and have advanced science/ technology that we could not even dream of knowing anything about, that could fit into the category of things that we don't know that we don't know.

A bit of a leap, and a bit science fiction, but I'm open minded..lol

Edit: Oops..just seen you made that point at the beginning...ah well, i'll leave it here now...

That said, your point is well made, that within the realms of our known science, there doesn't seem to be anything fundamental to discover. Everything is an advance or development of everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:45 pm 
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"Advanced Science / Technology" ... Advanced from what? What we already have? :wink:

Travelling from Point A to Point B in time and space is all about propulsion. We've been working on propulsions for 1000s of years. The wheel was the first step on the ladder which might eventually lead to Warp Drive. But there are 1000s of steps in between. Currently, we're at the "Burn Dead Trees" stage with our combustion engine but we're working on and looking for alternative methods of propulsion. One step after another. We know the physics behind propulsion, we know how much energy is needed to "push" Body A at XYZ speed, we could even send a Space Ship at (close to) light speed to the stars today - but we just don't know a practical or efficient way to do it. Darth Vader does.

But the key point is - we still KNOW this is possibe and HOW to do it yet we're still trying to dot the I's and cross the T's.

We already have at our disposal the means to produce whatever technology inhabitants of Planet Zog use - we know the science behind it .. we just don't how to put it together to make it happen - yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:06 am 
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Jay wrote:
"Advanced Science / Technology" ... Advanced from what? What we already have? :wink:


From our perspective yes, but maybe there is science we could not even begin to understand, that is not born from our ways of thinking or doing or being..admittedly that is a huge leap into the unknown.

It certainly makes us all think, and the point is a strong one, that everything is based around the science we already know.

I'm thinking there's some kind of science fiction book to be written around this subject Jay..? :idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:09 am 
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We dont know what would happen should we travel near the speed of light.
We only assume time slows down.
We can hypothesise that the human body wont withstand the experiment.

BUT we dont know.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Hence why I said above, we don't KNOW everything .. but we "know" everything .. there is a difference.

We can hypothosise and theorise about what would happen to the human body at speeds close to light speed because we understand physics and biology. Those are the tools which allow us to theorise in that example. We might not be 100% right but we can get close ...

.. back to consciousness (and again, I don't want to turn this into a chat about consciousness) - we know absolutely nothing about it, other than it exists. Nothing in psychology, biology, physics can even begin to explain it - it transcends everything we know - and exists only as something philosophical. Although, its obviously, real.

As the article states, Consciousness maybe the last great mystery. That would be the "new" science, Mark, if we ever get round to it. We've got a handle on everything else - maybe not "experts" on everything else - but know enough about it to understand it at a basic level at least. All the sciences cover everything in nature - barring Consciousness.

Do you "get" what I'm saying here? Again, I'm not saying we KNOW everything .. but we "know" everything. Barring that one thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:54 pm 
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mark wrote:
I'm thinking there's some kind of science fiction book to be written around this subject Jay..? :idea:


I'll add the idea to the 300 others I have that I'll never get round to writing .. :D .. My first book will be "NGI - Real and Uncensored" ... that would throw the cat amongst the pigeons .. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Do we know "everything"?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Jay wrote:
Do you "get" what I'm saying here? Again, I'm not saying we KNOW everything .. but we "know" everything. Barring that one thing.


It took a while, but I get it now. :lol: Very thought provoking..


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