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 Post subject: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:53 am 
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More and more aspects of paranormal research are being placed in the the 'Case Closed' category by investigators and skeptics alike. Things such as Orb photography and EVP recording which were once thought to have a possible paranormal origin are now explained away by so many as having perfectly rational explanations. So much so that groups that still put weight in these things are dismissed for not being 'scientific'.

My question is 'When should a group stop investigating so called 'proven' phenomenon?'.

I know my answer but I wanted to throw it open to you guys.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Well it never truly stops .. but thats the same with everythig whether its classed as Paranormal or Not .. The bulk of it stops because the answer found becomes "satisfactory" - what happens then is the odd hardy soul carries on and sometimes finds something extra about the subject that was missed and so our knowledge grows and re-opens the debate.

The Paranormal is classed differently tho to "normal" things that happen - but thats mainly due to the opposing sides that face off. Before Newton - when an apple fell from a tree, we didn't apply any mystical or spiritual significance to it - our everyday experiences told us that with nothing to support it things falls to the ground. It something that happens often. We might not of known why, but shit happens.

When we get into experiences that immediately defy explanation however, people of a certain disposition DO apply mystical significance. Whether we're educated or not, when we see an apple fall today we say "oh .. its gravity" .. The average Joe might not fully understand the inner workings of it - but we know enough to explain the falling apple. However, when something happens that defies Average Joes basic understanding of the world (and these things are usually rare events) - the mystical significance comes into it with some.

Where the Paranormal and Normal differ is that when an un-scientific belief arises (something is automatically classed as paranormal by some) - the motive behind the science tends to lean towards dismissing the Belief, first and foremost, rather than unbiasedly understanding whats going on. What this results in is a "satisfactory" answer being found which explains away the belief and then thats "case closed" (can happen opposite to this too - such as Climate Change - when people are trying to use science to promote a belief).

Sorry to say it : Cherry Picking.

No matter the subject, no matter whether its an everyday thing or not, no matter how scientific we claim to be or not - we will ALWAYS seek to promote our own personal belief and will pick and choose our way through life to support it and use whatever tools and explanations at our disposal to try and prove it to others.

We all have a desire to be "right". We all have a desire to gain the approval of others.

But as I said on another thread : It doesn't matter if you're in a minority of one, the Truth is still the Truth.

No matter the explanation given - scientific or woo-woo - it doesn't change Truth. All that the explanations, justifications, excuses and rationalisations do is create a reality that supports our belief and makes us sit comfortable with our version of the Truth.

But regardles of that - the Truth is still the Truth no matter what our perspective of it may be nor what we try and convince ourselves or others of it to be. What is - is. End of. Case Closed - whether we have an explanation or a rationalisation for it or not.

And whether its paranormal or not - thats something that people can't face - on both sides of the debate.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:05 am 
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Take Jays point however although your truth and my truth might be totally different, at times there can only be one explaination. Personally I might believe that I am utterly charming handsome and witty and believe this with total conviction however seen from a different perspective I could be ugly as sin, moronic and dense; my features and personality dont change, its is totally a question of personal perspective. This I think is the dilemma when judging things, facts are facts, interpretation leads to belief or disbelief.
I am lying in bed, suddenly across the window I see a dark cloud forming- the paranormal believer would think that this was perhaps some form of apparition and call out to it. The logical sceptic would think it was a dark cloud but wonder what was causing this. Suprise for both of them when they realise that their garden shed is on fire. The fact is the shed is on fire causing a cloud however our perception of reality tints the way the we look at the facts.
The reasoning process is always tinted by our belief and personal convictions. So the real question is can anyone be truly sceptical and open minded at the same time? Scepticism implies disbelief, open mindedness implies a willingness to believe?

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Yes, I agree with perspectives of truth - we all have them. But ultimately if my perspective is ABC and your perspective is XYZ it doesn't stop KLM from being the Truth.

As you say - a dark cloud forms outside the window. It doesn't matter if someone believes its an apparition or not - that personal believe or perspective isn't going to change the Truth that his sheds on fire.

If I was a believer in Orbs say - that they are manifestations of spirit caught on camera - my belief isn't going to change the truth. If they ARE dust particles, then they ARE dust particles - me believing otherwise isn't going to change that Truth. It would only be MY truth and thats fine if thats what I wanted - but its not necessarilly THE truth.

When we put our hat on something, when we try and justify a perspective, explain it or rationalise it - we're trying to convince ourselves of something that may not be true. If something is obvious, thats ok, look out the window, your sheds on fire - but when it comes to something thats open to interpretation (ie, the Paranormal) then we have to accept that if we hold a particular perspective on the subject then we could be wrong - if we put our entire stock of eggs into that basket (as some do on both sides) - we could end up in a world of hurt where our entire life or the choices we make are dictated by a falsehood ..

Its fine having a personal perspective but I'm more interested in THE truth regardless of what MY truth maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:26 pm 
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But who is going to judge exactly what THE TRUTH is if we are all inclined to our own personal predispositions of it? Wonder if there is some neutral grand arbiter out there to do it for us?

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Thats the point - nobody can judge .. nobody HAS to judge - the truth just is. Yes, we'll work things out eventually and come up with a whole ream of "satisfactory" answers with some of them more near to the truth than others ..

Take PI .. its easy to claim its has a value of 3.14 - but is that the "truth"? Well, for me and you and the ways in which we'll use it in daily life, it is enough .. its satisfactory.. but its not the true value of PI .. How about 3.141593? .. Well again, it more accurate and nearer the truth, but its still not the true value of PI. 3.14 is satisfactory for my and your purpose ... 3.141593 for other people .. but its still not the true value.

Whats true for me or for you is fine - and to live a comfortable stress free life its probably a good thing that people can settle on a "truth" thats good for them .. but that "truth" is more often "false" - maybe somewhere near truth, but not the actual truth. Its a 3.14 version of the truth and no matter which way we spin it, justify it, rationalise it, excuse it, explain it or lie about it - its close but no cigar and therefore not the truth.

(I know this is crossing over into the thread Claire started elsewhere and I never meant it too - sorry!)

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:51 pm 
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You notice how Dok starts these things off and then vanishes??? :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:54 pm 
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All in a days work! :D

I'm just waiting until I work out what the hell everyone is talking about and then I'll comment.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:10 pm 
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Am trying to work out what I'm saying too - I figure do some random typing and it might become clear to me too in time!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:57 am 
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Yeah I totally agree that there is no truth and that it is strictly personal.
I think that Derren Brown amongst others has proven that all the psychic stuff can be faked and far more convincingly too. Seems to me that theres lots of ways to throw a wellington boot across a muddy field without anyone having to claim that there way is the only way. Unfortunately this area invites tricksters and fakery, it does seem to me though that it takes a lot of effort to fake things but when I've picked the best stuff up it has literally just popped in my head.
Back to the truth stuff I got a bollocking from a member of management at the uni for an email I sent. This guy was a happy clappy christian and didn't appreciate the humour. I ended up sending him an email telling him that I was a buddhist and that the universe didn't exist in which case I didn't really send the email and therefore he certainly didn't recieve it. He couldn't argue with that because of the universities policies on faith and diversity, so i got a way with it. I think that just goes to show how the thruth can be manipulated. :D

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:36 pm 
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I'll disagree slighty - there is and are truths, but whether we'll ever know them all or even get close to them is another matter.

The point I'm making is that no matter what our personal truths are, the chances are that they aren't that actual truth that exists. Some maybe, of course, but the majority won't - and no matter how much we convince ourselves, try to convince others, offer proof or whatnot, it won't change that "real" truth that exists.

Take you are your messages / images you get - the "truth" is one of two things - they are either given to you be the spirits of the dead, or they aren't (if they aren't, there could be a whole load of explanations which aren't relevent here). So, it either comes from the dead or it doesn't. No matter what you might think, what others might think, what proof or evidence you might come across or suppy or what your perspective may be - it isn't going to change the "real" truth. If they don't come from the dead then no matter what you or I believe isn't going to change that - likewise, if they do come from the dead, again no matter what you or I think will change that. They either do or they don't and it's irrelevent in the grand scheme what you, I or anyone thinks.

Yes, we can have our own perspective and yes, that perspective can be as real to us as any nailed on truth - but it can also be completely and utterly wrong. Hence why its so important to get as many perspectives as possible on any subject, be flexible in our thinking, adapt our "truth" and evolve if needed.

Being blinded by our version of what is and isn't is where the troubles lie - whether its within the paranormal or with everyday events. I could be found guilty of murder, with reams of evidence, witnesses who claim they saw me do it - but none of that changes the truth that I didn't do it despite what the evidence or witnesses say.

Our interpretation of "truth" is at the heart of all troubles and strife in the world - its at the heart of all believer vs sceptic debates throughout history in respect of religious wars. And its an area where we all have problems ..

There is a comfort in being in possesion of the "truth" - even if that truth is only our version of it and compeltely wrong. We're comfortable with it and its why we come up with "satisfactory" answers and explanations for our beliefs, our opinions, our actions and our behaviours.

So to bring it full circle to Marks question - they'll always be someone who comes up with a satisfactory answer that is accepted by the self, minority or majority - but it doesn't mean its the true answer, accurate enough or right.

Its what we're comfortable with - and a lot of us would rather be comfortable with our own version of the truth - even if thats wrong, self-defeating or self-destructive - than be uncomfortable with the true truth.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:24 am 
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I think Jays being hoodwinked by the 'truth' cult hehehehehe!
Either that or hes wanting the search engine things to pick it up badly,amount of times he's said it hehehehehehe!!!!

fuckin 't' word my arse.

People will always do what they want for thier own reasons which they might or night not be aware of,who gives a fuck apart from us and when other people come into 'us' if ya get me,ie say something we either like or dont like,but thats all a good indication of how we are feeling anyway how we 'react' blah blah blah.....................

people will always do what they fuck they want in regards to 'proven phenomenon' stuff..............let em eat cake,we all do it,even me and I dont like fuckin cake hehehehe!

just because thinhs can be replicated dont mean they are faked,and just because someone has an amazing experience they cant explain it dont mean its 'paranormal'.............right or wrong....'t' or bollox without lumps in em none of this is about 'ghosts' or 't'.............its always only ever bout 'us'............

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:10 pm 
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I ain't been hoodwinked by anyone - far far from it - whether the truth cult or not! And that is the truth .. :mrgreen:

Without using that word - we believe what we want to believe because we want to believe it and it makes us comfortable to believe it, whether its right or wrong. We gain something from it. Now thats all well and good in small measures but we always have to push onwards and find out more. To settle on one version doesn't do us any favours in the long term.

A sceptic who argues that all this ghost shit is .. well .. shit - is doing so because of some deep rooted need that has to be fulfilled within them. That could be because of a upholding of a strict trust in scientific reasoning, it could be a fear of the unknown or plainly because they don't want to be seen as woo-woo. Whatever the reason, its fullfilling some need within them. Likewise with the Believer - they have a need, it could be a reluctance to accept that when we die, thats it or it could be the a need within them thats demands that there is more to life than what we experience daily or plainly a rebelling against the commonly held belief.

But - whether sceptic or believer - whatever they do think about the subject - if its Bullshit, its Bullshit - and no matter which way they spin it or justify their thinking or try and prove it .. Bullshit is Bullshit. And the more and more somebody tries to push a belief, the more and more they shout it out, the more and more they squirm and wriggle when challanged, the more and more likely they know its Bullshit and they are merely fighting to hold onto something that makes them feel comfortable - and they know it.

Theres maybe good reason for this - I accept that - and this particular view that is held might be good for the person who holds it. But again, if that perspective is Bullshit - its still Bullshit no matter how much the person tries to convince themselves that it isn't (Which links into that other thread about Shadows and lying to ourselves which I do mean to get back to).

So in answering Marks question - We will come up with satisfacory answers to explain or rationalise paranormal events (or any event). But what is satisfactory to one isn't necessarilly satisfactory to another. They maybe right, they may not be. But it doesn't mean we stop investigating them. All it will ever take is one Orb photo, for instance, to be shown not to be dust, moisture, insect or whatever explanation thats been given. All it takes is one that is completely unexplainable to open up the whole debate again.

But as individuals, one we have a need fullfilled, we do tend to stop looking for further ways. Its like Grumlok the Barbarian and his doors - as soon as he finds a door that opens and lets him out of the room - he's satisfied and doesn't bother looking behind the other doors to see whats there - his need is satisfied and he leaves the room ... fuck the other doors and other paths he could take .. there could be a door which leads to a more satisfactory conclusion but he'd rather take immediate gratification and fullfiilment of his need to leave the room rather than explore other potentially - far more satisfactory - fullfilling options.

He's set out, fulfilled his need - and he's comfortable with that .. and thats what we all do .. we take the easy option and convince ourselves that its the most convenient or satisfactory option because its the most comfortable to our needs - and thats whats most important to us - we'd rather cut our nose off to potentially spite our face, rather than put to oneside our immediate need and have the courage to face whats behind the other doors.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:18 pm 
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hehehehehehehehhehe hoodwinked........replacing a 'gap' with something else......cherrty picking.....whatever blah blah blah all the same shit and thats the 't' word too as much as yours ner ner ne rnenr ner hehehehehehehehehe!!!!

fuck me Jay you go for 'repetition' dont ya!!!!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

funny you mention facing thing rather not be faced...........I'ver stood up and been counted these last few weeks and whils not pleasant I had an option to take the easy road and not do so......which I didnt take,regsrdelss of how lifechanging the potential outcome.

I stood up and was counted and I'm proud of myself for doing so,cos it wasnt the most pleasant time I've had.......but for me it was the 'right thing',for me there was no other option despite there being one given to me,as theer is to everyone.
I know that when put on the spot I had the balls to face what I didnt want to or have to face,the easy option didnt sit with me and I had a most unpleasant time because of it,but I know that I do face things practically,not just talking and theorising about these things for hours.As do many others,who just quietly get on with it everyday,and not all are as lucky as me with the outcome.

I didnt take the easy option,I didnt hide or bullshit, I faced it,despite wanting to run away and hide from it.
But that wasnt satisfactory to my particular cherry picked 'value system' at the time,so my 'gain' came from that area.....we all get 'gain' whatever choices we make,I gather you've got some confused 'gain' issues at the mo Jay and thats what your 't' life crisis is all about xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(stop swearing and leaping about too,you know it makes sense hehehehehehehe!And a 't'crisis sounds much more fun that a mid life crisis anyway hehehehehehe!)

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:04 am 
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My mid-life crisis started 15 years back - so I'm bored with that now .. need a crusade!

I ain't repeating - I'm trying to answer Marks questions ... Should we stop investigating when a satisfactory answer is found. The answer : no .. We can convince ourselves that that answer is enough, and sometimes it is - but we can never settle and always need to have our eyes open for further informatioin. If we don't - we're in danger of settling on Bullshit.

As for facing shit - well, yeah - we all have to do it at times and sometimes we do stand up and be counted - and good on you for whatever it was and hope whatever gain you gain from it you value - and as you did for me, if you ever need an ear, you know where I am.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:20 am 
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your bored full stop and looking to repeat things which you 'gsined' from in the past,clinging to em like a er......limpet instead of doing the sensible and going right outta ya comfort zone with totally new things,and before you say the 'i am' i'll put good money you'll be applying the 'usual' to any 'new' things your bullshitting yourself with!but if it works fr you good for you!

'value'?hehehe fuck that!lots of greart insights lately though,and am valuing what i've 'learnt' from them,although not many suprises alas hehehe!

no ears needed jay cheers,although thanks for the offer.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:18 am 
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What the hell are you on about? You're speaking in riddles - again .. :P

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:31 pm 
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I'm speaking the 't' hehehehehehehhehehehehehhe!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:08 pm 
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The usual "t" riddles more like ..

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:24 pm 
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no riddles at all,makes perfect sense!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:27 pm 
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In Claires World, maybe .. out here in reality its just wonky talk ........ again :D

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:27 pm 
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I wish people would stop talking in code (or am I just being thick?)

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Am in the same position as you Mark!!

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:32 pm 
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What, in handcuffs with your legs tied behind your head??? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:37 pm 
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If thats what floats your boat, then keep it to yourself! But no, I'm not in that position!!

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