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 Post subject: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:41 am 
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Here's an account of something that happened to me when I was a late teen/early twenty something. You may have heard me talk about it before.

I was just wondering what sort of explanations you can give me for what happened. I promise I won't get on my high horse if you start calling me deluded, mistaken or just a plain liar. I am genuinely interested in peoples explanations from what occurred.

It was around 16 years ago and I was living at my parents house in Stockton-on-Tees. It was a Wednesday afternoon and my mate Dave had come round for our usual weekly chat. I was going to be getting a new computer in the next couple of days and was worried that it would be too large to fit on the desk in my room. I had purposely cleared my desk of all my junk to get Dave's opinion on whether he thought it would fit. After that we immediately tramped downstairs to watch a video.

As the video came to an end our conversation turned to paranormal matters (as they usually did). We were talking about psychic ability when I remembered that I had a word association test in a book upstairs that was supposed to test how likely you were to be strong psychically. We though it would be fun to try the test so we both went back upstairs to fetch the book from my bookshelf. On entering my bedroom I got a bit of a shock. There, on my newly cleared desk, was the very book we had been talking about. We both looked at each other not knowing what to say. We were the only people in the house and had been in each others company the whole time. Neither of us has gone up stairs to use the toilet during the video or anything like that.

The very next night I was staying up to watch Prisoner Cell Block H (Let's get the jokes over now shall we) with my parents. During the first commercial break I went up to my room to fetch a pillow off my bed, as I often used to do when watching late night TV. I had a cabin bed at the time with curtains that pulled across it. I never used to close the curtains but I was shocked on this occasion to find the curtains totally closed. I had been in the room 15 minutes earlier and they had been open and both my parents had been in the same room as me the whole time.


Explanations please?

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:04 am 
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I know we've talked about this before but on reading that:

scenario 1:
you purposely cleared your desk of 'junk' but at some point put your book back on it and dont remember doing this.
That is why you talked about the book and the 'test' and went to get it.

The curtains had been accidently 'knocked' open, you just didnt notice.

scenario 2:
2 hot blooded teenage males with all those rushing hormones - classic poltergeist stuff!
scenario 3:
You were having some kind of 'spiritual awakening' and it manifested itself in this way

scenario 4:
(for Jay)
'glitches in the matrix'

scenario 5:
It was a spirit who was moving these things to make you aware of your 'potential' or get your attention in some way

scenario 6:
you are a lying, attention seeking twat making it all up

scenario 7:
it didnt happen like this at all, your 'memory' has distorted it

scenario 8
you were mentally unstable and should have had a diagnosis and course of drugs which would have 'cured' you

And more...........take your pick Mark!!!!

Not sure you'll ever know now, but be interesting to regress you back to then and see what comes from that............

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:05 am 
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On face value theres very little to indicate any paranormal activity.

It could be simply that the reason you remembered th ebook was because it was already on your desk, might have been moved as you left the room to go and watch the video.

Your curtains are a similar thing, just because you didnt usually close them doesn't mean that on this occasion you didnt. Perhaps doing it automatically for some reason. This would add to the confusion when you thought "why are they closed?"

its not repeated behaviour, and I guess the book was used in the future without tunring up on your desk and that the curtains usually remained how you left them.

For me the easiest explanation is ALWAYS the more likely. As in you are more liekly to have done the things above than a ghost was.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:07 am 
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Interesting theories there Claire. Which one of them would you put money on if you had to choose the most likely?

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:12 am 
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all but 6 and 8 and 5,however if you substitiute 'part of yourself' for 'spirit' then that comes of the 'but' list!

I'd actually love to regress you back to this time and see what you get from it
a. cos its canny practise,
b. this is something I'm interested in doing with people who have these experiences anyway (not for proof/disproof, just to see what they get from it,but all would have to want to do this and be open about it, I wouldnt be fuckin about with it or using it as a 'game' etc!)
c.exams are looming and I need all the practise I can get!

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:30 am 
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Anth wrote:
On face value theres very little to indicate any paranormal activity.

It could be simply that the reason you remembered th ebook was because it was already on your desk, might have been moved as you left the room to go and watch the video.

Your curtains are a similar thing, just because you didnt usually close them doesn't mean that on this occasion you didnt. Perhaps doing it automatically for some reason. This would add to the confusion when you thought "why are they closed?"

its not repeated behaviour, and I guess the book was used in the future without tunring up on your desk and that the curtains usually remained how you left them.

For me the easiest explanation is ALWAYS the more likely. As in you are more liekly to have done the things above than a ghost was.


I'm not sure that I would say it is the easiest explanation for me, as it sort of indicates I was 'losing it' slightly. I'm not saying you're wrong Anth because it is possible I suppose that both me and my friend failed to notice a book on a completely clear desk (apart from a portable TV) when we left the room together, and that I decided to close both of the curtains on my bed (something I never did) for no apparent reason. Possible yes, Likely no (at least not to me).

Not saying it was deffo paranormal though.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:01 pm 
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dont you want to be my little ginnywinny pig then Mark.....???

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Oh yes. I'm up for it. I didn't realise you were serious about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:07 pm 
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With this kind of thing it is so very easy for people to put forward credible theories on what must have 'really happened'. Having not actually been there in the first place they are slightly removed from the conditions in which events actually occurred, but still make judgements (rightly or wrongly) about the state of the witnesses. Fair enough.

All I can say is that if you had taken the place of my friend on that day Anth, there little chance that you would put that explanation forward as the 'most likely' for the book appearing on the desk.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Damn right I'm serious Mark!
This is something I'm very interested in and serious about, not only outside of the investigating but also with it.Its a small part of why i'm doing what I am now anyway......

Yep, it is very easy for people to hear accounts of things and then make them 'fit' 'explanations'...be it of a spiritual or logical kind!
Part of the reason I am where I am with things is because over the years I've looked at many things to explain several of my own experiences....and I've found many which do, ranging from SP to withdrawal symtoms,kundalini rising (hehe), the 'fact' that I'm a 'medium' as well as 'naturally listening with more than just my ears', about to 'split' my mind and let it merge with the universal energies, a 'chosen one' ,absent minded, attention seeking,downright liar, game player, deluded,'special',choosing to interpret natural things as 'paranormal' etc etc etc, loads more ......

All can 'fit' the applicable situations/experiences....some better than others but seems like to me that all your left with after all this is your own personal 'choice' in which of these explanations you go with as to what the experience acutaly was.......or you start to see 'patterns' from all this.........

Seems to me that 'what' it actually was may never be known, as this has all 'happened' already anyway and cant necesarily be exactly'recreated' just like many normal things in life!You can 'mimic' and set up replications in trying to find outwhat it was but its not the exact 'event',as this has happened and gone!........so pick your belief system as to what 'did happen' and live happily ever after!!!!!!!!

What do you think it was Mark?

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Last edited by pollen101 on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:27 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
With this kind of thing it is so very easy for people to put forward credible theories on what must have 'really happened'. Having not actually been there in the first place they are slightly removed from the conditions in which events actually occurred, but still make judgements (rightly or wrongly) about the state of the witnesses. Fair enough.

All I can say is that if you had taken the place of my friend on that day Anth, there little chance that you would put that explanation forward as the 'most likely' for the book appearing on the desk.



So by saying that its not the most likely, then you are insinuating that something paranormal occured. I covered this by saying that this "phenomena" was not repeated.

Theres only three things that could have happened:
1/ the book was there all along and the curtains were closed earlier
2/ Someone else put the book there/closed your curtains
3/ paranormal

So its two to one that somehting perfectly normal happened so in all probability, i.e the most likely of things, it was perfectly normal and shows that human recollection is not perfect (far from it in fact)

Well at least this is how I see it.
I know and accept others will see it differently, but its uncanny that Claire said the same thing about the book as a possible explanation.

Because we cant rule anything out, as you rightly point out, we were not there. We have to make certain assumptions based on either knowing you, your friend or on basic human traits. This I have done. Saying that I beleive its more likely that human error occured when stating the facts in your first post (even though you have posted this before :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Anth.........are you saying that because this phenomenon was not repeated that that in itself therefore rules out the fact that it was 'paranormal' or am I reading you wrong???

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:34 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
Anth.........are you saying that because this phenomenon was not repeated that that in itself therefore rules out the fact that it was 'paranormal' or am I reading you wrong???



No I have had to make several assumptions.

Mark cites two cases that occured in his house. Based on what he has written here I make the assumption that nothing else happened, these were two isolated incidents.
I have done this to avoid 1001 questions to set the scene before making comment. The same as I applied a common human trait to both Doc and his friend, because I dont have the benefit of personally knowing either one.

Like I said i know and understand that people will see it differently, but if producing a book and closing a pair of curtains were attempts at communication then they were pretty poor.
Why do it when no one was around?
What was the purpose of the supposed paranormal event?
Why only two events? (see my assumption)

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:36 pm 
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But he's already said that he never ever closed the curtains, so doing so would be an event that is out of the ordinairy and would therefore have been noticible at the time and would have been remembered ..

We can't have things both ways ..

When we hear a noise when in an alledged haunted house, it gets passed off as a "normal every day noise that we're just not used to hearing" .. hence why we make more of it when we hear it in the dead of night and we tend to make more of it after the event claiming its not normal .. its something, we're told, thats so ordinairy but being witnessed in extra-ordinairy ciircumstances.

So, Mark closing these curtains would have been an event that would have stood out to him .. and therefore .. going by the same rules, would have been noticed at the time and remembered perfectly (the closing of) afterwards.

Seems like a case of Heads you win, Tails you lose to me .. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Jay wrote:
But he's already said that he never ever closed the curtains, so doing so would be an event that is out of the ordinairy and would therefore have been noticible at the time and would have been remembered ..

We can't have things both ways ..

When we hear a noise when in an alledged haunted house, it gets passed off as a "normal every day noise that we're just not used to hearing" .. hence why we make more of it when we hear it in the dead of night and we tend to make more of it after the event claiming its not normal .. its something, we're told, thats so ordinairy but being witnessed in extra-ordinairy ciircumstances.

So, Mark closing these curtains would have been an event that would have stood out to him .. and therefore .. going by the same rules, would have been noticed at the time and remembered perfectly (the closing of) afterwards.

Seems like a case of Heads you win, Tails you lose to me .. :mrgreen:



No because human recollection does not work on true or false.
We forget things we use or do often. We forget things we dont so or use often. thats a false false situation.

Yes it would be a consideration that Mark forgot these two things but its still more likely than saying a ghost moved the objects. We Know the frailties of the human mind, we dont know whether ghosts do or do not exist, so I ask again, which is more likely?
It doesnt matter massively how out of character the closing of the curtains may have been, he could simply have been getting chnaged and windows cleaners were about.......we simply dont know. But its not uncommon for a human to close curtains they normally dont close.

For example I use my pin number on my bank card maybe twice a week. I know the number. However one time at the machine I just completely forgot it. Why? thats not paranormal thats a human trait.

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Last edited by Anth on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:41 pm 
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blimey!

why do you assume that this is 'an attempt at communication'?
And why in your book (scuse the pun hehe!) would that be classed as 'poor'?
'purpose'???????

seems to me your setting the stage with your for your own assumptions on things!

How would Mark know these things,unless he's either done it himself or is lying....which I dont believe for one second knowing Mark as I do.

Intersting.....seems to me you seem to asscociate all paranormal activity with 'spirits'............

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:44 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
blimey!

why do you assume that this is 'an attempt at communication'?
And why in your book (scuse the pun hehe!) would that be classed as 'poor'?
'purpose'???????

seems to me your setting the stage with your for your own assumptions on things!

How would Mark know these things,unless he's either done it himself or is lying....which I dont believe for one second knowing Mark as I do.

Intersting.....seems to me you seem to asscociate all paranormal activity with 'spirits'............


Well I doubt highly it was a gnome or an elf or even a demon. I almost certainly wasnt a spell issued by Master harry Potter or his clan. So it doesnt really leave much. Cant say books are known for self levitation so it narrows the explanations down greatly. I cant say I have known of self closing curtains so something or someone has done this.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:46 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
blimey!

why do you assume that this is 'an attempt at communication'?
And why in your book (scuse the pun hehe!) would that be classed as 'poor'?
'purpose'???????

seems to me your setting the stage with your for your own assumptions on things!

How would Mark know these things,unless he's either done it himself or is lying....which I dont believe for one second knowing Mark as I do.

Intersting.....seems to me you seem to asscociate all paranormal activity with 'spirits'............



Also the drawing of curtains that are normally kept open is a way of attracting attention.
Just like waving your hands at an overhead aircraft if lost on the moors etc. Its attracting attention.
If this kind of things happened on a regular basis then perhaps there would be more of a leaning to paranormal. But as I originally said "on face value" this is how I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:47 pm 
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I'm not gonna speak for what Mark did or didnt or might not have done for obvious reasons apart from in the essence of my first post!

Yes, the memory thing is a totally valid point,I'm with you on this Anth as I'm sure everyone is....however to 'insist' that this will be what happened is as blind to me as those who 'insist' that it was definately 'paranormal'!

with you 2 actually as you put it tho Jay hehehehehe!!

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:49 pm 
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er Anth...are you gonna answer any of my questions or just ramble on waving your hands hehehehehe!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:52 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
I'm not gonna speak for what Mark did or didnt or might not have done for obvious reasons apart from in the essence of my first post!

Yes, the memory thing is a totally valid point,I'm with you on this Anth as I'm sure everyone is....however to 'insist' that this will be what happened is as blind to me as those who 'insist' that it was definately 'paranormal'!

with you 2 actually as you put it tho Jay hehehehehe!!



Its playing safe, its more likely that these happenings were normal than paranormal and because I was not a first hand witness I cannot comment with anything anywhere near accuracy of what happened.
So I look at the facts as told to me and make a decision, that decision is based on something that to me is more likely to be from forgetfullness than a paranormal situation.

Now had mark walked into his room and seen a figure of an old woman stood there who promptly vanished, I would be more inclined to say paranormal.


EDIT: and besides Mark asked for explanations. This was mine. Why do you pick at my view point and not at Marks?
I've spent time looking for ghosties and found remarkably....or predictably little evidence in the times of the investigations. I've experienced stuff myself at odd times, yet I still get the same shit you deal out to everyone else that doesnt go oh wow man Like so far out and paranormal.

Listen its fine to be objective, whether you agree or not, I simply say the odds in anything paranormal occuring in the two cases Mark gave were slim.

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Last edited by Anth on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:58 pm 
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There was only one other incident that happened in my house and that was a disappearing pen the same week.

Just because I'm saying that your explanation is not the 'most likely', doesn't mean it was paranormal.

These are still the facts as I see them:

Curtains:

- I never used to close them.

- Window cleaners do not come round usually come round at 11pm in which case I wouldn't have seen them anyway as my window curtains will have been shut.

- It is impossible to have closed the curtains by accident.

- There were only 3 people in the house at the time. The doors were locked and the others never left my sight.

What that leaves my with is that I either ran upstairs to get my pillow, closed my curtains on my bed (which I never did) and then totally forgot about in in the space of half an hour.

or

a unknown factor was at work.

To my mind the first explanation is no more likely than the second.


Book:
- The desk was clear. Both me and my friend has purposely cleared it.

- There was no one in the house at the time.

- We left the room at the same time and did not leave eachothers sight.

- I was only reminded about the book after we had been downstairs for quite some time.

- We both discovered the book in the centre of the desk together.

What that leaves my with is that we either both failed to notice a book on the centre of an empty desk.

Someone snook in and knew I was going to want to look at that book, put it on my desk and then snook out again.

or

a unknown factor was at work.

Again, to my mind the first two explanations are no more likely than the third.

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:02 pm 
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I'm with you Mark.

''Now had mark walked into his room and seen a figure of an old woman stood there who promptly vanished, I would be more inclined to say paranormal.''

er..............
a. why?
b. sure you wouldnt be going down the realms of hallucinations/mind and eyes playing tricks/imagination etc etc etc?

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:03 pm 
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I always put my car kesy on the window sill at the fornt door.
Last night they were not there.

paranormal? Evidence of somehting strange happening?


No last night i left them in my pocket, why? I dont fucking know, I just did. First time I recall in two years that I have done this. So was it significant event that i forgot last night? No Its not giving any evidence of anything weird happening, out of character yes, but thats not a significant event really is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations please?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:04 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
I'm with you Mark.

''Now had mark walked into his room and seen a figure of an old woman stood there who promptly vanished, I would be more inclined to say paranormal.''

er..............
a. why?
b. sure you wouldnt be going down the realms of hallucinations/mind and eyes playing tricks/imagination etc etc etc?


But it could be argues that with no known drugs that the hallucination itself could have been paranormal, and being more inclined to sya paranormal does not mean I would say it WAS paranormal.

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