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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Underworld Minion
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Ooooh loada posts since I started replying to that,thats what I get for doing 5 things at once hehehe!!!

''Ouija board has long been shown to be no more than ideomotor effect. Try the old trick of blindfolding users and maybe even turning the board around. You don't get successful results then.''

Dont shoot me here, not saying I go with this,just chucking it in to see what comes back!
If the ouija 'at best' works on the 'subconcious', then what about the 'claim' by mediums that this is how 'spirit' can communicate with us,through the 'subconcious',and the relevance of using these tools to 'explore' the 'subconcious'?Or other such things ,like putting someone in an altered (trance) state and then establishing an ideomotor response and using this as a way to see what information can be 'gleaned' about the 'location'.Same thing, diffferent 'spin'....................

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Technically, all scientific discovery comes from speculation .. "Why does that work?" .. "How does that happen?" .. "Whats that made of?" .. "Why does that move like that?" .. and then, initially, answers are thrown out to try and explain it - only then, experiments preformed to see if any of those answers actually have any merit.

Every process goes through that. Now, that speculating might last only a minute .. then again, it could last a hour, a day, a year, 10 years or a 1000 before anything solid appears which can be experimented with.

Its very easy to come to the incorrect assumption that before Newton started looking at apples, that the question "Why does that always fall down?" had never been asked previously. History tells us in its concise fashion that one day we didn't know about Gravity, the next we did.

But the truth is that the question (and speculations in trying to answer the question) would probably have been asked since the dawn of man. Goblins, Gods and Dragons no doubt came into the speculative answers, at some point, as they always seem to do. But we had to go 1000s of years speculating before somebody worked it out and did the maths.

Every scientific discovery goes through that process :

question(s) .. speculative theory .. experiment .. law.

(Be aware of the ping-pong effect that is possible between speculative theory and experiment and, even, questions).

If there's nothing in all this - then, with it obviously being a faith based thing to some like religion - we'll be ping-ponging till the end of time.

If there IS something in ghosts - then we are obviously in that speculative theory time .. with theories being put forward, experiments carried out, back to speculative theory waiting for the paranormal equivalent of Newton to come along.

No different to any other discovery since the dawn of time - then.

Now the point I'm making here is that people tend to take the standpoint that the process of what we're going through here is different to anything thats gone before ...

... It isn't. It's exactly the same.

We ask questions
theories are speculated
experiments carried out
go back or wait for a better understanding of the universe if we don't come up with answers.

The only difference is - we're actually living through it (and contributing to it) and not reading about it for 5 minutes in a history book.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Scientific Method .. wahey! Here I go .. been waiting for this one for years!

The simple fact is - the amateur scientist does not and will not ever use the scientific method in anything they do. In truth, many professional scientists don't either .. We ***THINK*** we do .. but, sadly, we don't. Its impossible unless the person doing it is a robot and not governed by emotions and belief systems.

For starters (I'm not picking on you here Trystan - but its a mistake many people make and seems you were the latest to do it .. therefore ....... :mrgreen: )

Trystan wrote:
How do I investigate? I operate on the principle of eliminating natural causes of apparently anomalous events. Perhaps this is best illustrated by the location where a box would move across the floor. With a little perseverance it became clear that it was not a ghost, but vibrations that were responsible.


Now I am assuming you are promoting the use of the scientific method in this example? Well, you're not using it.

The scientific method although requiring perseverance is not solely limited to that. Perhaps tho - you observed what was happening a number of times? Again, rightly so - but again, you're limiting yourself. Perhaps you did observe the vibrations and concluded it was those affecting the box? Again, way to little scientific methods used to bring about a conclusive answer.

Did you :

Take the dimensions of the box?
Did you weigh the box?
Did you weigh the contents of the box?
Did you find out the mass of the box?
Did you calculate the friction between box and the surface?
Did you measure the frequency of the vibration?
Did you calculate the force the vibration placed upon the box?
Did you take into account the slope of the flooring?
Did you take into account the effect that the observers had upon all these factors?
Did you experiment with other objects (after doing the above for each) and make predictions which proved your theory?

.. and on and on and on and on ..

No? Well in that case then - you didn't correctly apply the scientific method. What you've done is come up with a comfortable explanation, based on your belief system, to explain what you were observing.

Now. You may be right with that explanation - but you've done nothing different than what the believer who claimed it was a ghost pushing the box would do. He's done exactly the same - came up with an explanation that pandered to his belief system.

You say vibration - he says Great Aunt Mable.

Until you can show conclusively - that you've taken all of the above into account, done experiments, made constant predictions with multiple objects - then all you are doing .. see me last post .. is speculative theorising. Nothing more. You woo-woo you! :D

It doesn't matter if the explanation is more plausible or likely than that of a ghost pushing the box - its still a theory without foundation or anything backing it or supporting it. I'll refer to your counting grass example in an earlier post. You have not sufficiently demonstrated that your explanation is backed by science - and so therefore - its as invalid as a ghost as an explanation for what you observed.

Now - the second mistake that people make is incorrect assumptions (again based on our belief system). As it says in every company boardroom the world over .. Assume makes a ass of u and me.

We all make assumptions (like above - right or wrong) based on nothing more than what we BELIEVE to be the case, rather than what IS the case.

Sometimes we're right .. sometimes we're wrong. The incident with the box is one that could be right .. but again, until you follow the scientific method right through to its boring and far away end, then it is merely an assumption.

But, what you're implying is that the Believer wouldn't even do the short-hand version of the scientific method you have made.

I've been doing this for years. I have NEVER come across a believer who doesn't do exactly what you have done in that example. IE, tries to rule out natural explanations first.

Now ok I accept - some are better than others. Some might not take into account every factor (neither have proponents of the scientific theory as I outlined above). Some may not have the knowledge. Some may even ignore what they find.

But - we ALL do exactly the same things in that last paragraph .. whether we think we're following the scientific method or not.

Not every proponent of the scientific method is as good at it as the next guy. Not everyone takes in to account every factor. Not everyone has the same level of knowledge. Not everyone goes with the result regardless.

Yet EVERYONE goes through that process. Even the biggest Creaky Floorbarders the world has goes through that process and eliminates natural causes that they are aware of. If I've observed it once, I've observed it a million times.

So for the proponents of the scientific method to make wild and silly-claims and come to incorrect assumptions where they have not applied the scientific method, themselves, to something that is easily observable and claim or imply that believers don't do that and it is in fact the sole-domain of the scientifically minded only is .. quite frankly .. psuedo-science. :wink:

Likewise is the explanation for the moving box.

Until these claims made from the scientific method proponents can be fully shown and are conclusive and all necessary factors are taken into account and they can demonstrate that the scientific method has been applied rigorously to all aspect of their research into a subject - then it will flatly remain, psuedo-science and nothing more than speculative theory.

Just like the believers.

Why is this?

Because, as grandiose as it sounds when people make a claim - any claim - we ALL make the same mistakes and we all jump to unfounded conclusions / assumptions and quite frankly, in a lot of instances, just can't be arsed to apply the correct scientific method. Creaky Floorboarders and Flat Worlders alike.

We are creatures of belief and emotion and no matter what we may claim we can't escape that. We can do our best to limit their effects - but we can't ever rule out their influence completely.

If we don't apply the scientific method correctly and, to its fullest extremes - then we will all suffer what you'll see many times from me by looking around this forum :

We all cherry pick information and evidence that suits our belief system and then ignore and put aside anything that challenges that belief system.

Confirmation Bias as its technically called. Not only do we suffer from it in the exact form above - we also go out of our way to seek information and evidence which supports our belief and don't even look at alternatives. Life is more comfy like that.

We all do it and we all suffer from it. In your box example - although you were probably right - you will be affected by it. You'll have set out to explain what you observed in a way that was suitable to your belief system demanded and, as Murphys Law Of Reasoning states :

Look for something long enough and eventually you'll find it.

Which doesn't, contrary to popular belief mean that you were right, or, all possible answers exist - it means that we'll unconsciously manipulate events, data, our witness recollection, our interpretation of results and all other factors to suit the answer we expected before we began our investigation. Our pre-concieved idea will rule the roost and completely negate any findings we come across and make a complete waste of time any investigation we did - we're going to get the answer we're initially looking for so why bother investigating? Only to appease what we already believed - thats all.

The Scientific Method, however, can over-ride all of this - I agree .. and so it should. However, people - regardless of what they may claim - don't apply it correctly or fully .. and so, as mentioned above, do nothing more than what a believer does .. make silly claims without foundation and hope the word "science" gives them authority.

It doesn't. Only the actual method does. If we don't use it correctly - then we're just a different set of believers who think our God is bigger than the other lots God.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Trystan wrote:

Science can't define? Or has defined and you have chosen to ignore the definitions for some bigger picture.


Unless scienmce has the answer to everything in th eentire universe I stick with Cant yet define.


Trystan wrote:
Galileo made an inference based upon measurable, repeatable observations of the moons of Jupiter orbiting that planet. He also observed moon phases and that of Venus which contradicted the established notion of geocentrism. Repeatable results.

Thing is that the BURDEN OF PROOF rested with Galileo and he addressed it.

And as I asked, what science did he use to prove it? the science that was not considered fact at the time, you could say untested science only one man had his theory. You could even stretch it and say Pseudo science.


Trystan wrote:
Oh, you're so emotional. :wink:


No I stated what I was :wink:


Trystan wrote:
Once again, tell me why counting blades of grass is a poorer method of searching for anomalous energies than waving around an EMF meter which is designed for detecting mains frequency EMF. They are both entirely useless. Burden of proof you have is to show that these anomalous energies exist and you can rule out equipment malfunction or otherwise mundane EMF as a cause.


Well for starters I've never known blades of grass be much use for detecting energies, perhaps heat energy as it shrivels up but thats about it and a thermomemter would be more appropriate than counting said blades of grass when looking for aheat energy.

And EMF detects Electro magnetic fields, which no matter what frequency they are at are Energies.

So to me its EMF 1 Blades of grass 0

And a pointer, I STILL have not said that EMF meters find ghosts, they dont they find EMF fields.
Like Thermometers indicate general temperature.
That Cameras capture an instant of a room....although I have been pissing about with IR photography......hasnt produced anything of much use yet....Might have to Buy a new DSLR and get my current one converted to IR only.
FLIR captures Infra Red signatures (Forward Looking)

None of these things will find a ghost, but they may provide evidence for further research and if you look at all my posts I always come back to further research.


I dont fuck about with Ouija boards, I dont piss a out with mediums...I think they are a waste of time and a total distraction.
I have had a go of a crystal pendulum and noticed that even the tiniest movement of your arm can produce a huge reaction from the pendulum, so I scrapped them.
I've played about with dowsing rods and noticed those with cold hands get little reactions from them.
Never seen ANY evidence of a trigger object moving.
Never been touched, heard voices or had things "imprinted" on me.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Anth wrote:
Well for starters I've never known blades of grass be much use for detecting energies, perhaps heat energy as it shrivels up but thats about it and a thermomemter would be more appropriate than counting said blades of grass when looking for aheat energy.


Actually yet another everyday item than detect a lot of things, Heat as you said can be detected, so can moisture, cold, vitamin presence, weight (i.e. stick a heavy object on a patch of grass and the more defined the yellow patch is afterwards, usually inicates how long it has been covered as well as how heavy the item had been.


Last edited by Jay on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Changed quoted by to correct person


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Bekki - I've edited your above post - and changed the "quoted by" bit to avoid a later debate on who said what! :mrgreen:

It was Anth that said what you quoted - not Trystan!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:05 pm 
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sorry, I just hit the quote button and deleted what wasnt needed


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:40 pm 
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yep......as Jay says with the confirmation bias....we all do it regardelss,hence why I mentioed in earlier posts that fence sitters do it in equal proportions too hehehehehehehe!!!!

What I wanna know is where we go with it though?Thats my interest.'Life' seems to be a set course of tail chasing at times,then its off for the thrown stick then back to the tail chasing until another stick is hoyed for us hehehehehe!!!

Well fuck that...........the little cherry picker thats sat on me right shoulder lately says thats the conformation bias for you lassie........fuck tail chasing fuck stick throwing go shag a leg hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why 'cherry' though??????

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Hi guys

Now that the school holidays are over I don't have the time to respond further in the forseeable future. However, if you feel that we have done you wrong by the interview then you are welcome to a right of reply. Better still, if any of you want to come on the show to make your points then you are more than welcome to email me: info@ripodcast.co.uk

All the best
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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Hello Trystan!

I personally have no issues with the interview, my only problem with it was from my end,which was the way we ended up doing it over the 1 phone and not skype as planned,which was my end of things fuckin up so to speak,however its not a huge thing,it still got done!
Expected editing and have no gripes there!You had sent us an idea of the things you would be bringing up,which you did,no shocks or suprises there!The posts on here are just like any other forum post far as I'm concerned ,not anything to do with the interview itself etc! I'd be happy to talk about these things anytime,if you want us back you know where I am!

End of the school hols - fuckin yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:53 pm 
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All fine in my opinion. There's no wrong doing in having a healthy discussion as long as both sides remain civil and respectful despite differing opinions. I think it's a shame that more 'paranormal groups' don't debate with the likes of RI more often as its far more interesting then everyone just keeping to their own safe little worlds.

I used to love my school holidays :D

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:10 pm 
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http://moh2005.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... hread=7193

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Told you those cunts on BP wouldnt even listen to what went on.

They are incapable of thinking outside their own tiny pre conceived minds.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:15 pm 
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For once i actually agree with Anth on his second phrase,not that they are C**ts, i just think that NGI is reaping what it has sown by getting involved with this podcast. :wink:

Personally i'm not bothered wether other people believe or not or who thinks who has the most valid arguments your all going to find out the truth one day. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:03 am 
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It's a shame when peoples ability to actually think for themselves is tarnished by what they are 'told' is correct. Constantly 'name dropping' or appearing to swallow a dictionary, doesn't necessarily make you more knowledgeable about a subject.

Quote Hayley: "Trystan and I discussed this over on your forums and posted several reasons as to why it is not a valid way to investigate but I personally felt that my comments there were actually just ignored because they didn't fit in with the belief of the others on the forum."

Couldn't exactly the same thing be said of you? It seems to me that if anyone doesn't fit in with the views that you think are correct, then they must be 'woo'. It's a case of if you're not with us then you're 'silly'. No middle ground.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:06 pm 
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My description of "those on the BP site" was a personal oppinion. Doesnt make it true. Just like hayleys oppinion of how she saw the reaction to the interview. I like to use words that offend and I know I am not alone in that.

For the record I enjoyed the interview, I said so at the time. The subsequent argument pissed me off, because I felt that Trystan and Hayley set out to intimidate those they interview, they use phrases like rise to the challenge. What? they are setting out to challenge the views of the interviewee? thats not an interview then. It means the interviewers are entering with a pre-conceived mindset of what the interviewees are. jay and clare are believers therefore they are fit for ridicule on BP forums.

I see nothing new in the way its done. They read up on theories like everyone else can and the repeat them. The thing is they beleive in these theories, they show faith in the theories (note this is what they accuse woo people of also). It was admited that it was all philosphical. I can read a theory on poltergeist activity and proclaim it as gospel truth. However its not my theory and it remains a theory. I can repeat it till I am blue in the face, I can set up a forum where we all chant the theory and sing from the same hymn book. It doesnt make it any more of a theory.

Everyone here knows I'll call a spade a spade. I am unconvinced by mediums so far as I'll say theres an almost certainty that the vast majority are faking it. Sensatives...again not a great believer in it, surely if the mind can concentrate on things it can be revealed by examining brain patterns.....has it been done? I dont know.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:33 pm 
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I am not and never have been a believer - so how anyone can throw that accusation at me I'll never know! If anything can be thrown at me it is I'm more philospher than anything (how arsey does that sound!) - I examine possibility from every angle, and don't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit in with my (engineered?) reality that I live with daily.

To me - we live in a universe of possibilities and as such, anything is and can be possible. We may not be able to jump off a building and fly, but given an infinite number of chances - eventually, we'll find someone who can (yes, this world is not infinite - but the universe or universeS could be .. who knows? And infinite possiblity means infinite chance).

Who'd have thought that a bird would evolve .. or a bat with sonar .. or the many other wild and crazy things that have evolved purely on this world (which would have been dismissed as "woo woo" before discovering them) .. so why couldn't little evolutions that aren't immediately obvious evolve too? Like the spirit of a dead person existing outside of its physical body .. or people able to communicate with said spirits ..

Ok, yes .. you need proof .. of course you do .. but we poo-poo many things and ideas because they are crazy ie, fall outside the realms of what we think is possible, rather that inside the realms of what is possible. Its our perceptions that define boundaries, nothing else.

But - we are creatures of belief .. Some believe in ghosts and God and all the implications of that .. and some believe in the pursuit of science and all its implications .. but thats just a consequence of our own evolution up to this point in time. Its only "right" because we say its "right".

We may look at a distant object - one person claims its near, one person claims its far away .. science tells us through a form of measurement the actual distance between us and the object .. but its the individuals perception that truly defines whether its near or far. But is the exactness of what science says truly "right"? Well it is .... but only based on our current understanding of what we're measuring and the methods we use (which are "made up" and devised by us to help us understand). We might discover Wormholes tomorrow and the measurement will change depending on the method ..

Spain is a long way to walk to .. its not too so bad to drive too .. its a much "smaller" trip if we jump in a Boeing .. even less in a F-16 .. The distance hasn't changed - but our perception has.

We can all talk about exact-ness .. but ultimately - it means jack-shit .. Its about how we percieve it that matters on a day-to-day basis - regardless of what the numbers tell us. One persons unknown energy spike is another persons ghost .. who's right? Ultimately, niether and both ..

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:46 pm 
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all i will say on this matter is ,unless the non beliver has experianced the sensetives veiws on things, they see, and here, or its projected to them by what i dont no?, then they will never be able to say its right or wrong, as they will never no.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:29 am 
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banned from the pubs cos they dont like drunks banned from the pubs banned from the pubs banned from the.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG1vTpJa ... re=related

er, I mean banned from the Sad Septics forum cos er...............well actually, why do you lot think I've been 'banned'?

fuck me I cant go bastard anywhere hehehehehehehe!!!Havent even got me hat on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:39 am 
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I've just been reading your posts and I can't believe you've been banned. Well done you!

They'll probably blame it on your 'Wank on!' line, but I suspect there may be underlying reasons. Wonder what they could be? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:58 am 
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You're a bad girl!

I admit the "Wank On" post didn't help .. But thats a "fair and balanced" forum for you .. People are allowed to make all manner of claims (without investigation or evidence to support those claims - naughty naughty!) - and despite you repeatedly answering those claims and by "speaking from the inside" so to speak in defending NGIs position .. YOU are the one who gets banned.

That says a lot, me thinks ...

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:06 am 
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wasn't 'defending' - just claryfying things as they came up!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:11 am 
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Well, whatever word you chose to use - but, people don't need any "clarifying" - they have ALL the answers, remember - you should really get educated so that you can bow down to their superiority .. Have you learnt nothing in all your time doing this .. ??

Here is you're education!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3161

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:20 am 
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Underworld Minion
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heheheheheh u nutter hehehehe, I wasnt 'claryfying' for them hehehehehehehehehe!!!

''Have you learnt nothing in all your time doing this .. ??

Here is you're education!''

fuck me you've jumped camps fast hehehehehehe!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:21 am 
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The Ferryman
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Here's a new avatar for you Claire. If you want to adopt it I'm sure Jay can do the honours for you.


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