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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:58 am 
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Skepticism should be applied to all areas of life. Good science has skepticism as an underpinning principle. If you conduct an experiment that has surprising results then chances are you will have someone read your article and attempt to reproduce your findings. They will check to see how tightly you are controlling your variables. This is why the likes of Chris French has found that telephone telepathy doesn't stand up whereas Rupert Sheldrake adopts less stringent controls and gets all kinds of weird and wonderful results.

Good science indicates there is also bad science, which I gather to you is 'pseudoscience'. To me its all shite unless the art of science is applied fully and as equally as is possible to all areas of everything, something Jay strives for and I also do, as this seems the only logical way of doing things.When something 'dictates' something this I always find interesting.....and the newreligions, the new system of control which is what most people understand as science takes the piss out of the art of science in itself but is shit hot effective in taking something effective, like the art of science, and using it as a way to control things and make millions from. Science,this big machine/religion which grinds it way throughout the world scooping up everything hehehehehe, enslaves its 'believers' as surely as the other religions have throught history as we are presented it...........something which the true art of science does not do.
Sheldrakes stuff shows1 thing and Frenchs another....dont see how any do anything other than show what they show,as both are different!Others using both this to make points from is a seperate thing.............

There just 'is'....the rest is just peoples interpretations of it dependant on many different factors.Good or bad same thing......man made perceptions.Things are,the rest is open to interpretation hehehehehe!!!


''Senses give us the input and our mind does the interpretation. The quality of output depends on (a) quality of input (b) the knowledge of the brain performing the interpretation. Y'know, I recall a rather unfortunate event with somebody who used to investigate a lot. They were convinced a ghost kept walking in front of their nightshot cam corder because it wouldn't autofocus properly. On the other hand I knew that the camera would have immense difficulty attempting to focus on a completely blank wall.

Other thing to bear in mind is the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. It proves nothing in itself. Memories are also not instant snapshots of what occurred. Rather, they are our attempted reconstructions of events. These memories can be prone to huge errors (ask Hayley about her word experiment at Weird 09).''

Off out to play now, I'll be back to reply to aspects of the last 2 paragraphs later, interesting stuff!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Trystan

Further investigation revealed the goosed EMF reader, my point proven again.
I am not out to prove the existence of ghosts, I am out looking into things that science cant yet explain. Paranormal is about a lot more than ghosts.

I have always said, we collect data and analyse that data, the sceptic people ALWAYS start to get silly, theres no way counting blades of grass could prove the existence of anomolous energies. The same as an EMF meter wouldnt be any good in counting blades of grass.
Theres limits to what would be appropriate and you have shown a total lack of respect.......as usual for sceptics........and tried to be funny.
Let me re-iterate, I dont care if ghosts exist or not, my life is not going to be changed either way, my belief if I am forced to have one, is that Science cannot currently explain everthng in this universe.

Pseudo science.....not sure where you are coming from there. We set out an aim, we carry out a method we review results. Cant see anything pseudo about that.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Right, this getting confusing. I will address each of you in different posts to help avoid.

Bekki wrote:
Actually yes I am deadly serious, everything taught in schools is not always provable, They teach religious studies in schools too, But then tell us its up to us to make our minds up. Science is just yet another conditioned belief, Give the dilema of who created the world.


Read 'Big Bang' by Simon Singh. It's the best solution we have based on the evidence available to us. Just because we cannot be 100% certain it does not therefore mean God did it or ghosts did it. Do you reach a decision based upon evaluation of evidence, and draw meaningful conclusions, or do you just say that anything goes?

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Who is to say that this IS the best of our knowledge, Christians believe that is to the best of thier knowledge,


Incredible. One is based upon evaluation of evidence, one on nothing but faith and sheer speculation!

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Another perseption.... We are conditioned to believe that it hurts therefore it does, I shattered my leg in seven places


Fair comment as it was not a good example on my behalf, but your argument fails when we apply it to a belief that someone will walk through a wall or not obtain a likely fatal injury if they discharge a gun into the roof of their mouth.

Yes bang on, But why should science be as yuo quoted above "To the best of our knowledge", we know just as little about science as we do about religion and little green men, it isnt fair to say one overrides the other unless there is solid proof.

What do we know about little green men? Very little beyond the anecdotal testimony that some people claim they have seen them. What has science taught us? Umm, umm, umm ... I cannot believe you are serious???

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As it also dosnt mean that science is right or religion in general is right, or anything else for that matter.


Of course it does. Does the orgone energy produced by the Great Invisible Ape revered by the Axthadans your door handle or is it a case your hand is turning it and operating the mechanism? Remarkable.

Quote:
Too many long words say it in english and Ill give you an argument....


Sorry, but I just think you are making yourself look very, very, very silly. You seem quite happy to rant against science but seem to have very little understanding of what it is or what it entails.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Anth wrote:
Further investigation revealed the goosed EMF reader, my point proven again. I am not out to prove the existence of ghosts, I am out looking into things that science cant yet explain. Paranormal is about a lot more than ghosts.


Regardless of what your point is, what is the motivation in collecting data when you have no sound methodology to collect it and no sound way of applying it?

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I have always said, we collect data and analyse that data, the sceptic people ALWAYS start to get silly, theres no way counting blades of grass could prove the existence of anomolous energies. The same as an EMF meter wouldnt be any good in counting blades of grass.


It is a perfectly fair analogy. What good is collecting readings from an EMF meter in proving the existence of the anomalous energies? Why is it a more valid method than counting blades of grass? Both are just as useless.

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Theres limits to what would be appropriate and you have shown a total lack of respect.......as usual for sceptics........and tried to be funny.


Total lack of respect by drawing a fair analogy? This is the response I often see from people with faith based systems who cannot address the burden of proof issue. You start crying foul rather than actually going out and doing the proper scientific experimentation.

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Let me re-iterate, I dont care if ghosts exist or not, my life is not going to be changed either way, my belief if I am forced to have one, is that Science cannot currently explain everthng in this universe.


No, science cannot explain everything in the universe. Does it mean that anything therefore goes? No! Ditto issues of walking through walls.

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Pseudo science.....not sure where you are coming from there. We set out an aim, we carry out a method we review results. Cant see anything pseudo about that.


If you take the time to re-read my last response to you, you will see where I have outlined why your methods are not scientific.

Isn't it odd how I can have a reasoned and balanced debate with Jay and Claire yet as soon as other people start wading in????


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Trystan wrote:
Anth wrote:
Further investigation revealed the goosed EMF reader, my point proven again. I am not out to prove the existence of ghosts, I am out looking into things that science cant yet explain. Paranormal is about a lot more than ghosts.


Regardless of what your point is, what is the motivation in collecting data when you have no sound methodology to collect it and no sound way of applying it?

Quote:
I have always said, we collect data and analyse that data, the sceptic people ALWAYS start to get silly, theres no way counting blades of grass could prove the existence of anomolous energies. The same as an EMF meter wouldnt be any good in counting blades of grass.


It is a perfectly fair analogy. What good is collecting readings from an EMF meter in proving the existence of the anomalous energies? Why is it a more valid method than counting blades of grass? Both are just as useless.

Quote:
Theres limits to what would be appropriate and you have shown a total lack of respect.......as usual for sceptics........and tried to be funny.


Total lack of respect by drawing a fair analogy? This is the response I often see from people with faith based systems who cannot address the burden of proof issue. You start crying foul rather than actually going out and doing the proper scientific experimentation.

Quote:
Let me re-iterate, I dont care if ghosts exist or not, my life is not going to be changed either way, my belief if I am forced to have one, is that Science cannot currently explain everthng in this universe.


No, science cannot explain everything in the universe. Does it mean that anything therefore goes? No! Ditto issues of walking through walls.

Quote:
Pseudo science.....not sure where you are coming from there. We set out an aim, we carry out a method we review results. Cant see anything pseudo about that.


If you take the time to re-read my last response to you, you will see where I have outlined why your methods are not scientific.

Isn't it odd how I can have a reasoned and balanced debate with Jay and Claire yet as soon as other people start wading in????



Scientific experiment on something science cant yet define, and when methods that dont meet your approval are used, you cry pseudo science.

Well by those desciptions Newton was a pseudo scientist, so was Einstein, because he never was able to prove relativity.....and its considered in some circles to be inaccurate anyway.
Quote:
In the course of developing many of his theories, including his famous Theory of General Relativity, Einstein introduced the cosmological constant, which holds the notion of a static universe versus an expanding universe. In this proposed idea, Einstein assumed this quality of the universe to be true despite not having arrived at this conclusion through any mathematical derivation or physical proof. Einstein introduced this new constant into the scientific community, along with his claim of a non- expanding universe and exciting new equations explaining the cosmological equilibrium of attraction between all matter in the universe.


What about gallileo trying to prove the earth orbited around the sun, what science did he draw upon to prove that, science at the time said the sun revolved around the earth.

The reason I cant give reasoned and balanced debate is because I am not reasonable and I am certainly not balanced. I dont suffer fools at all.
If you cannot see why counting blades of grass is not an effective way of looking for anomolous energies, then theres no point in continuing an intelligent discussion is there?

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:04 pm 
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''Senses give us the input and our mind does the interpretation. The quality of output depends on (a) quality of input (b) the knowledge of the brain performing the interpretation.

Absolutely!Not sure I'd describe it as 'quality' but its absolute it seems to be basdically how you descibe.Like how you word that.!But thats where it all starts to get interesting!How/why do people interpret things in the way they do?People seem to have 'senses',which I wont describe as 'dominant' but senses which they seem to 'prefer/give a 'dominance' sort of to (not especially acurate but cant be arsed going into the specifics exactly, if u get me with this you'll know!) more than others at times,and this can be gleaned from the things people say and they way they say them.One of the areas I'm interested in especially is this, and basically trying to see if theres a 'dominant' sense thats affected by the places specifically, and if there is what the reasons for this could be.I have got a methodology (amongst other things)for collecting this data,and Jay has devised a system where I can enter this data in which will be able to collate and present it,which isnt up and running yet but will be self explanatory when it is. I know that all sounds a bit vague and shitty but it fuckin isnt hehehe!
(wonder how long before I see this as an 'exclusive' elsewhere hehehe - unrelated to this topic but a dated 'prediction' for something else hehehe!)

Not for one moment am I going to say it will stand up to 'scientific' standards etc, thats not my motivation regardelss of whether it does or it doesnt, however using certain techniques employed by many people from different areas of life there is a sound way to collect this, and this is why the 'subjectivity' thing is so relevant and interesting!There are many things I'm interested , and it will be interesting to see what the patterns do show, but my original 'motivation' for it was basically to see if each location gives people 'experiences' which indicate a sense thats affected mostly at the places based on gleaming basically what a persons 'dominant' sense is at the time of the investigation, and seeing if the 'dominant' sense of the place differs from this etc.If places seem to affect senses over others, then what is the reason for this.....thats where I'm going with it,which leads on to all the other environmental/geographical things etc, its all part of the same thing, part of the same pattern etc. Also to see peoples patterns in how they describe things, what influneces them etc......I've devised several different 'experiments' to run with this. Not doing it to 'prove/disprove ghosts or the paranormal in any way, I'm doing it cos there are certain things I've noticed over 4 years I've been doing this and I'm interested in what this will turn up from this, whatever that is!

I know that probably sounds shit and doesnt make sense, but it will once its all up and running and the data is presented,which it will be on the webby for people who are genuinely interested to view and discuss etc!


''Y'know, I recall a rather unfortunate event with somebody who used to investigate a lot. They were convinced a ghost kept walking in front of their nightshot cam corder because it wouldn't autofocus properly. On the other hand I knew that the camera would have immense difficulty attempting to focus on a completely blank wall.''

Why didnt you tell then then????

hehhehehehe sorry, I'm 'presuming' from this that you did, and that they chose the 'ghost' over the 'camera' explanation,although you could have been a twat and just sniggered at them hehehe, can see the temptation hehehehehehehe!!!

But I dont know, I only have whats written here by you base my 'opinion' on,there could be many more factors affecting this which you are omitting deliberatly or not deliberatly because your unaware of this, but saying it like this gets your point across but might not give the full picture, if the other person was to say their point it could give a completely different picture to this hehehehehe!More 'subjectivity' and 'testimonies' to 'take' from hehehehehehee!!!!

I have to apply the same 'scepticism' to what you say as I would the other person, before either saying ''ooooh interesting'' and just noting it,saying 'Trystan you know I see that happen so many fuckin times too, doesnt it drive you barmy that people refuse to accept the obvious in preference of it being what it obviously is, deluded bastards hehehe'', or ''hey Trystan.......hold your horses mate, its very probable indeed that this could be a ghost, many times I've seen and heard of ghosts affecting cameras in this way, now just because cameras do behave like this it doesnt mean that ghosts cant and dont affect cameras in this way either''.........hehehehehe!!!

Having a laugh here (in a lovely way of course, see its all in pink, not red or black or 'shouting' capitals,which could indicate a bit of the old er......'tension' hehehehehehehehehehehehehe!),but to show my point that scepticism should really be applied equally to all 'testimonies', which I find often isnt the case, as when the 'scientific' approach is taken many people seem to assume that people do know what they are talking about(when often they dont), and that this automatically has more 'authority' over anything else, and so the other peorsons 'testimony' is not given as much credence.......which might well be shown to be the case....but the automatic 'bias' of this rattles me own heaving chest, because it seems to have a big influence on people, which might not necessarily give 'accuracy' to how people who are affected by this kind of thing 'investigate' or make their decisions etc.....which is why Jays said it and I absolutely agree (despite being fully aware that this is just as much a cherry picked opinion as anything else hehehehe!)that to give credence to everything equally and not have a preferance to any of it is the way to go regarding this for obvious reasons (athough impossible to do fully,but to strive to maintain that equilimbrium despite personal 'bias'....cos we alll got it!)


Other thing to bear in mind is the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

Absolutely agreed, this is my big interest!!!!!!!!!

It proves nothing in itself.

It 'shows' many things!!!!!!!

Memories are also not instant snapshots of what occurred. Rather, they are our attempted reconstructions of events.

Absolutely agreed, and its fantastic, because this is how we experience our whole life hehehehehe, as a 'culture' (maybe a species)we dont 'live in the moment', we're all at the 'mercy' of our 'memories'...yet they are proven to be 'attempted reconstructions' based on many many things, and also 'unreliable'.....yet its how we experience life!!!Which I know 'cues' science' to then come along and give us the basic 'groundrules and guidelines' which can 'prove' solidity and 'fact' in the grand scheme of things.....some solid framework to hang the rest from, but actually just 'prove' there are common stimuli which we all appear (unless theres sensory differences, as with animals or people who have different sensory input/translationary 'systems') to share regardless of this....basically whats 'real' and whats not.......

However 'science' is paradoxical in itself, its constantly showing that nothing is ever as we fully think it is, theres always more being 'proven', more being added to, which is personally why I think its great, and the art of science is beatuful to behold and experience, however the 'grinding machine' approach of it isnt this, its something else completely,yet because it does apply at its roots, and gives people the impression they are applying the art of science (which tye are to varying degrees in some areas and individually etc depending on thier understanding of this etc) basically 'mainstream science' as people generally experience it not what is seems, on 'healthy sceptical investigation' hehehe!The only limits are those which we set ourselves........yet mainstream science seems to based on us setting strange 'negative' limiting er....limits, which are constantly being 'shifted' for us anyway. Its like the interpretation of the 'law' which is something like 'for everything theres an equal and opposite reaction'. So basically if you cant walk on water......you equally and oppositely can.......


These memories can be prone to huge errors

Absolutely agreed!!!!This is one of the things which I first started noticing about 'investigations' and peoples interpretations of things, and the 'quality' and 'accuracy' of the type of report system which was in place, and peoples motivations and differing levels of 'input' regarding this. Hence why I absolutely agree when you say to Anth about what is the point of collecting data unless there is a suitable methodology involved etc type of thing......hence what I've mentioned above about whats in progress regarding this type of thing. But getting back on topic (I neverstay fully on topic for a full post- sorry hehehe!), peoples 'memories' and how they 'choose' to remember things is absolutely interesting and valid, and I've got several 'experiments' which can/do show this easily, as well as showing just how easily people are influenced, and exactly what types of simple things can have a big effect on how people 'experience' things.

A basic 'memory' test can be effictively used show the unreliability of peoples memories,cue the 'crime witness' thing which has been used in schools for years, where you watch a short vid of something boring and everyday where a nasty person usually steals something, then are asked questions about it immediately after, then over different timescales.


HAYLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????
(ask Hayley about her word experiment at Weird 09).''

(This is in 'shouting' style cos I'm shouting so Hayley can hear me and come and post, no 'tension' except to the old cybervocalcords hehehehehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Whats your approach to how you investigate, or would ideally investigate Trystan?I know we briefly touched on it on the phone but it got lost in other things, same with Hayley!I think we should come back on and ask you about your approaches and opinions on this etc hehehehehe!!!!!!!!That aside I am genuinely interested, because I gather they differ somewhat, and Hayleys approach specifically interests me........

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Last edited by Jay on Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:41 pm 
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''Last edited by Jay on Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Added Paragraphs! ''

Er........Jay?????????????????????

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:49 pm 
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None of your paragrahs had lines between them and I was struggling to read it (kept losing my place!) - so I edited it to put the line breaks in to make it more readable, firstly, for me .. and secondly, maybe for others!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:12 pm 
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Honestly, you go away for a weeks well earned break and this all kicks off in my absence. There's far too much for me to read in detail right now as I'm at work trying to catch up on things, but what I have read is fascinating and there's some good points made by both 'camps'. I'll have a good read later on and put in my twopenneth for what it's worth.

Never have I seen so many 'scientific buzzwords' bandied about on an NGI thread before , I'm off to get my dictionary! :D

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:19 am 
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2 penth????

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:00 pm 
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I've had a read now and most of the points I would have made have been already covered so I'll just pick a few things that stand out for me.

On Bad Psychics: A very good idea in principle and I expect there are a good core of people stilll on there, but well balanced?........ not in my opinion. There seems to be as many people making wild statements as a lot of 'woo' sites, and many people just treat it as a place to laugh at the simple minded people who actually entertain the fact that the 'paranormal' may be 'real'. All claims should be challenged I agree, but words such as 'deluded' are often bandied about without any reason other than the authors opinion.

On the Paranormal: Should we believe in something that has no scientific evidence to support it? Not necessarily; but should we not entertain the possibility of something that has a large body of subjective evidence as being worthy of further investigation.

On Science: Just because there is no Scientific evidence that something exists doesn't mean that it doesn't. It is often said that Science has 'proved' why people experience ghosts. As long as the person making the claim has a sufficient level of academic notoriety, then many people quote their conclusions as gospel when in fact they haven't really proved anything, all they have is a workable theory that fits into known scientific principles. They may be able to replicate the similar effects but it still doesn't 'prove' that it exactly the same thing.

On Pseudoscience: Absolutely nothing wrong with it. All science starts off this way anyway. In times past we thought that the sun revolved around the earth. This was understood as fact, not just by the common man but by the best scientists of the day. I understand that using pseudoscience is not going to hold any weight with the academics if you are trying to prove the existence of the paranormal to science (but I really don't think much would). It is often assumed that paranormal investigation groups are out to prove the existence of 'ghosts' to the world, so should only be using established scientific techniques.This in fact this is not the case at all. Many are in it for their personal curiosity, I know I am.

On Gadgets, Gizmos and the dreaded EMF: I have to confess that I quite like using them. They will never replace my own personal experiences but are a good way to 'back up' any experience you may have. If equipment is used correctly, then there is nothing wrong with monitoring the environment as fully as possible. There is a common practice for people to slag off virtually every single piece of equipment that has ever been used in studying the paranormal. Statements such as "There is no evidence to suggest that EMF have anything to do with ghosts" are often heard these days. This could very well be true, but how do they know that? Presumably because they've either used them themselves and had no joy, or that the very idea doesn't fit into established science, which to be fair, neither do 'ghosts'.

On Ouija and the like: I've got no problem with using them on investigations also. I suppose I also fit into the "just in case they work" camp, but what's wrong with that? I don't think it's that same thing to say "why don't you take a kitchen sink to an investigation then, just in case". Like it or not, there have been cases where information has been gained via a ouija or found through dowsing etc. This is all subjective 'evidence' I agree and should be treated as such, but no information has been gleaned from using a kitchen sink in to my knowledge. Maybe if this starts to be reported I may consider taking one to an investigation.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 pm 
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dok wrote:
This is all subjective 'evidence' I agree and should be treated as such, but no information has been gleaned from using a kitchen sink in to my knowledge. Maybe if this starts to be reported I may consider taking one to an investigation.


Claire has got close to achieving that with a plug .. only a couple of steps to go!

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:11 pm 
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That is very true, I may have to think about getting a bigger car :D

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:12 pm 
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heheheehheheheeheheehehehehehehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Actually i have used a kitchen sink, for scrying at work, Just fill it with water and hey presto, no need for mirrors or crystal balls


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Anth wrote:
Scientific experiment on something science cant yet define, and when methods that dont meet your approval are used, you cry pseudo science.


Science can't define? Or has defined and you have chosen to ignore the definitions for some bigger picture.

Anth wrote:
What about gallileo trying to prove the earth orbited around the sun, what science did he draw upon to prove that, science at the time said the sun revolved around the earth.


Galileo made an inference based upon measurable, repeatable observations of the moons of Jupiter orbiting that planet. He also observed moon phases and that of Venus which contradicted the established notion of geocentrism. Repeatable results.

Thing is that the BURDEN OF PROOF rested with Galileo and he addressed it.

Anth wrote:
The reason I cant give reasoned and balanced debate is because I am not reasonable and I am certainly not balanced. I dont suffer fools at all.


Oh, you're so emotional. :wink:

Anth wrote:
If you cannot see why counting blades of grass is not an effective way of looking for anomolous energies, then theres no point in continuing an intelligent discussion is there?


Once again, tell me why counting blades of grass is a poorer method of searching for anomalous energies than waving around an EMF meter which is designed for detecting mains frequency EMF. They are both entirely useless. Burden of proof you have is to show that these anomalous energies exist and you can rule out equipment malfunction or otherwise mundane EMF as a cause.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:16 pm 
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you can get the same effect too with a glistening cock end..........

thats in reply to Bekkis kitchen sink and water post, sorry Trystan, you reply wasnt on here when I posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:23 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
]Whats your approach to how you investigate, or would ideally investigate Trystan?I know we briefly touched on it on the phone but it got lost in other things, same with Hayley!I think we should come back on and ask you about your approaches and opinions on this etc hehehehehe!!!!!!!!That aside I am genuinely interested, because I gather they differ somewhat, and Hayleys approach specifically interests me........


How do I investigate? I operate on the principle of eliminating natural causes of apparently anomalous events. Perhaps this is best illustrated by the location where a box would move across the floor. With a little perseverence it became clear that it was not a ghost, but vibrations that were responsible.

How would I ideally investigate? Look to establish natural causes through a long term monitoring project of a location. Not exciting, not sexy but probably more worthwhile. Too many teams have no idea what is normal inside a given location. Too many teams are also essentially making their own ghosts by using long debunked methods such as mediumship, ouija boards and the like, together with equipment that is not fit for purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Have methods such as mediumship, ouija boards and certain equipment been 'debunked' conclusively in your eyes Trysten?

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:34 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
On Pseudoscience: Absolutely nothing wrong with it. All science starts off this way anyway. In times past we thought that the sun revolved around the earth. This was understood as fact, not just by the common man but by the best scientists of the day. I understand that using pseudoscience is not going to hold any weight with the academics if you are trying to prove the existence of the paranormal to science (but I really don't think much would). It is often assumed that paranormal investigation groups are out to prove the existence of 'ghosts' to the world, so should only be using established scientific techniques.This in fact this is not the case at all. Many are in it for their personal curiosity, I know I am.


All science starts out as pseudoscience? Far from it. Can you name me one example from the past fifty years where something pseudoscientific has become accepted by the mainstream scientific community?

I have addressed the helocentricsm stuff elsewhere in my response to Anth. I think you should also consider consider that 'science' is more than an expression, it is a method. What once passed for 'science' is now viewed as no more than dogma or speculation. Religious philosophy also used to play a significant part in 'science'.

doktor_phibes wrote:
On Gadgets, Gizmos and the dreaded EMF: I have to confess that I quite like using them. They will never replace my own personal experiences but are a good way to 'back up' any experience you may have. If equipment is used correctly, then there is nothing wrong with monitoring the environment as fully as possible. There is a common practice for people to slag off virtually every single piece of equipment that has ever been used in studying the paranormal. Statements such as "There is no evidence to suggest that EMF have anything to do with ghosts" are often heard these days. This could very well be true, but how do they know that? Presumably because they've either used them themselves and had no joy, or that the very idea doesn't fit into established science, which to be fair, neither do 'ghosts'.


You really don't get the scientific method do you? I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia but this entry is a useful primer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific ... and_belief (the section 'elements of the scientific method' is very worthwhile).

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On Ouija and the like: I've got no problem with using them on investigations also. I suppose I also fit into the "just in case they work" camp, but what's wrong with that? I don't think it's that same thing to say "why don't you take a kitchen sink to an investigation then, just in case". Like it or not, there have been cases where information has been gained via a ouija or found through dowsing etc. This is all subjective 'evidence' I agree and should be treated as such, but no information has been gleaned from using a kitchen sink in to my knowledge. Maybe if this starts to be reported I may consider taking one to an investigation.


Ouija board has long been shown to be no more than ideomotor effect. Try the old trick of blindfolding users and maybe even turning the board around. You don't get successful results then. Wonder why? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:35 pm 
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doktor_phibes wrote:
Have methods such as mediumship, ouija boards and certain equipment been 'debunked' conclusively in your eyes Trysten?


Mediums have failed time and time again in double blind test conditions.

I previously addressed ouija and divination as ideomotor effect.

Equipment ... it depends on what you are doing with it.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Despite being a sensitive, I also try to logically explain things before accepting them as paranormal, so mediumship isnt always about claiming every little tap is a ghost, There is one thing I have noticed, How come most mediums can accept that certain things are caused by logical explanations are are willing to believe that both the scientific and the mediumship sid eof things are possible, yet you present the same information to a scientist and they'll debunk everything that thier little world dosnt agree with.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Trystan wrote:
Can you name me one example from the past fifty years where something pseudoscientific has become accepted by the mainstream scientific community?


Off the top of my head I can't must admit. But may that not be down to how pseudoscience is viewed by today's mainstream scientific community?

Trystan wrote:
You really don't get the scientific method do you?

That's me told. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:08 pm 
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''How do I investigate? I operate on the principle of eliminating natural causes of apparently anomalous events. Perhaps this is best illustrated by the location where a box would move across the floor. With a little perseverence it became clear that it was not a ghost, but vibrations that were responsible.I would imagine and presume that all investigative teams would come to the same conclusion given the same circumstances???
How would I ideally investigate? Look to establish natural causes through a long term monitoring project of a location. Not exciting, not sexy but probably more worthwhile. Too many teams have no idea what is normal inside a given location. Too many teams are also essentially making their own ghosts by using long debunked methods such as mediumship, ouija boards and the like, together with equipment that is not fit for purpose.''Hmmm....do you not think that anything of relevance' regarding the 'paranormal' can be gleaned from 'investigating' these things away from the investigations themselves?

Forgetting 'ghosts/spirits' whatever do you not think alongside establishing what is 'normal' for a location (as best as possible through a long term monitoring project) that establishing what is 'normal' (as best as possible through a long term 'monitoring' project) for the people involved is not as worthy and valid?
I do........hence other stuff!

Absolutely agree with the purple text!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:18 pm 
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There seems to be an assumption that all 'paranormal groups' who do use spiritual and pseudoscientific methods are all a bunch of 'Woos' out for a scare, that they do not look to establish natural causes through a long term monitoring of a location and that they do not understand things like the ideomotor effect or the effects of psychology.

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