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 Post subject: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Scaredy Cat

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Hi guys

The interview with Jay and Claire recorded with Righteous Indignation podcast is now online at http://www.ripodcast.co.uk.

All the best

Trystan


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Cheers Trystan!

I shall have a listen later tonight!
Started listening last evening but had to go and play out so didnt get to hear much of it........gonna bloody sue ya over that piccy tho hehehehehehehe!!!!

I shall send u a proper one!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:04 am 
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Just listening to the podcast now.

I had never shown much interest in these, as I kind of got sick of BadPsychics....Havent posted there in ages.

Any phenomena that becaomes repeatable is worthy of investigation, be it by Scientific or Pseudo Scientific matters.
What Most investigators....myself included are looking for is data. How we collect that data is open to anything, provided the method of data collection remains scientific, as in you record your results, you record temp, time hunidity etc.
The problems arise when we come to recording what people feel.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:21 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
gonna bloody sue ya over that piccy tho hehehehehehehe!!!! I shall send u a proper one!!!!!!!!!


I only guessed it was you! Lol! I wouldn't worry too much about it!

Anth wrote:
I had never shown much interest in these, as I kind of got sick of BadPsychics....Havent posted there in ages.


We were going before we had the Bad Psychics link and we try to cover a range of subjects.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Trystan wrote:
pollen101 wrote:
gonna bloody sue ya over that piccy tho hehehehehehehe!!!! I shall send u a proper one!!!!!!!!!


I only guessed it was you! Lol! I wouldn't worry too much about it!

Anth wrote:
I had never shown much interest in these, as I kind of got sick of BadPsychics....Havent posted there in ages.


We were going before we had the Bad Psychics link and we try to cover a range of subjects.


Yeah I started getting emails about it, just assumed it was part of Bad psychics really.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:40 pm 
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We have an association with Badpsychics but are a freelance podcast. We only joined up with the badpsychics network after our first couple of episodes.

The badpsychics forum and site is a well balanced platform for discussion into all sorts of silly claims made with no basis to them.
The members of badpsychics come from a whole range of beliefs.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:12 pm 
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lo guys!

I'll take umbrage at your claim there Hayley! Badpsychics is no way a well balanced forum! Hell - if Anth - who's as sceptical and anti-silly-claims as they come can get sick of badpsychics then that tells its own story! :shock:

Now there are silly claims out there - of course there are - and should be challenged .. But a lot of these silly-claims come from peoples own experiences and are deep rooted in their belief system and, as such, should be treat with respect even when it goes completely against what we ourselves may or may not believe.

We're not talking about " .. I think the government is dodgy .. " types of beliefs here - but beliefs that are fundamental and are the foundations of peoples entire lives and so to name call and laugh at them for what they choose to believe is a form of psychological fascism. Badpsychics is rife with that and far from balanced. We wouldn't do it to a fanatical Muslim - we'd end 60 foot up in the air and spread out far and wide if we did (hey, thats just me stereotyping and piss taking people who don't believe what I do! :mrgreen: ) - so why do we do it to those who believe - as a religion - spiritualism?

I've often said, there is a very fine line between scepticism and cynicism - too many sceptical types who claim to be "balanced" are far from it.

I like to think I'm straight down the middle with things - I've heard silly claims, seen photos of dust, heard "Elvis" rattling a window with the wind - yet, I've also seen a "ghost", had at length communications, had things thrown at me and been physically attacked etc etc- but, I'll still aim to go down the middle, respect people making "silly claims" (they are only silly because we haven't experienced them ourselves) and not be swayed - either way - because, as I said in the interview, until we have a "ghost" locked in a cage which we can prod, poke and probe to our hearts content - then the reality is that none of us have a clue.

Until that happens then all options are open and all methods are viable. If science could explain "ghosts" or the experiences that people have right through the paranormal, then it would have by now .. if the believers could explain ghosts, spirits, religion in terms that science could understand, they would have by now.

Nobody has - so again it shows that no-one on either side of the argument has a clue .. lots of huffing and puffing and blowing wind out of our asses .. but that's it. Until somebody can - then no believer claim will be accepted and any scientific method put forward is any different to throwing chicken bones on the floor ..

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Trystan - that cos I was tagged then hehehehehe!I'll send u better one, trust me hehehehehe!!!

hello Hayley!

Not been on the bad psychics thing so cant comment.......get fed up of ghost groups and forums and all that shite that seems to go with it,apart from that I love what I do hehehehehe!

Jay - agree pretty much (although your 'experiences' always suprise me when I read about them as you know hehehehehe!!!) Agreed that respect should be given to all areas of anything,although good banter and generally good natured piss taking is always a good thing in my book!I'll say your as guilty of cherry picking as the rest of us, as usual, but pretty much agree with your last 2 paragraphs.

However I get bored shitless by the sceptic/believer debates..........those that use the true art of science and dont get bogged down by the shite that surrounds it.....those that question and accept equally, dont give a fuck whats causing anything ,these are the people I like to be around, especially regarding these types of issues.

Anth - ''The problems arise when we come to recording what people feel.''.
Hmmm....not neccessarily!This is an area which interests me hugely, I feel its absolutely relevant and overlooked, brushed aside for obvious and not so obvious reasons. Its something I'm looking into especially though, for obvious and not so obvious reasons too hehehe!
Plenty of ways of getting data from this, in fact its actually the easiest to get and start to quantify really in a way!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:22 pm 
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pollen101 wrote:
Jay - agree pretty much (although your 'experiences' always suprise me when I read about them as you know hehehehehe!!!) Agreed that respect should be given to all areas of anything,although good banter and generally good natured piss taking is always a good thing in my book!I'll say your as guilty of cherry picking as the rest of us, as usual, but pretty much agree with your last 2 paragraphs.


I'm a man of mystery and don't openly shout things from the roof-top or blow my own trumpet .. :D .. Given they are / were my personal experiences and nobody elses then I gain nothing from talking openly about them - unless we experience something ourself, then it means nothing to people.

And Cherry Picking? Moi? No!! .. Well .. We all cherry pick - the key is not being influenced by it. Yes, I'll use cherry picked arguments and analogies when explaining or arguing against something - then, use the opposite cherry picked arguments when arguing for it! :mrgreen: .. Thats why I apparently have splinters in the crack of my arse .. I try and go as far down the middle as I can.

But, I don't let them influence me (or, more accurately, be as conscious as I possibly can be of any cherry picked influence - and when I catch it, stop it) .. and thats the main important bit.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:43 pm 
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When refering to your experiences you know what I'm talking about....I'll say no more hehehehehe!!!

But you are absolutely correct in the fact that they are your 'experiences' and how you choose to present them is entirely up to you!This is one of the great things of the 'ghost' stories and how people 'present' things and the 'reactions' they inspire in people etc.

Course you gain/lose/equalise or whatever by talking about them hehehe, same as by only bringing them out to 'air' at specific times this can have more of an 'impact'....as we've discussed before regarding all sorts of things, not just ghosts etc!You know the shit, give up fuckin about hehehehe!!!

Also how 'myths' can begin....although I'm not on about that with you, just speaking generally there.

And again, brings subjectivity up to the fore............

Jay, you 'cherry pick' and 'present' to suit your own agendas as we all do...and you know it hehehehehe!!!
You just dont let the 'cherry picked and presented things influence you from your main 'agenda'.......once rooted at that agenda your the same as everyone else and you know it hehehehehe!!!Your 'buttons' are there same as everyones.............

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Ahh .. but I don't have an agenda in regards to the paranormal .. I simply am in a position of what it turns out to be it turns out to be .. Likewise with most discussions - I debate based on whats presented, nothing more. If somebody claims something - no matter which side of the fence they come from - and puts forward a weak assed argument that I can punch holes in, I'll do it.

Not because I'm being a twat - but because if an argument is weak, not thought out, makes wild claims (based in fact or fiction) or generally BS - then I'll tak the stand against it so that the point being put forward is either strengthed by the person making it (though probing it or me being devils advocate) or dropped completely (because it never held up to scrutiny).

Yes, in those instances, I'll cherry pick points of advance and offer them forward - but those points of advance aren't necessarilly my standpoint or own belief and I'm certainly not being influenced by them towards my own "agenda". I'm merely pointing flaws out in an argument.

The only thing that comes close to an "agenda" that I push forward is that, as I mentioned above, we know absolutely nothing and that all sides to all arguments have merits and flaws and therefore should all be viewed equally. None of us have the jurisdiction to declare A is right and B is wrong simply because we ourselves are probably "wrong" more often than not. You know - stones in glass houses and all that jazz.

So when something is stated as FACT when its nothing of the sort - I'll stand against it and attempt to point out the flawed thinking and yes, I'll cherry pick my argument to suit.

But, again, it doesn't mean what I'm saying is what I believe, it doesn't mean it influences me and it doesn't mean I'm right either. Its merely an attempt by me to encourage all people to view all aspects of the big picture without pigeon holing themselves with something read on the back of a Cornflakes box or heard on Eastenders!!! :mrgreen:

I can't put forward an explanation for the paranormal - because I don't have one and don't claim to have one. I haven't got a clue. The way I see how things go is :

1-Some people claim to experience something
2-Some people claim they didn't
3-Some people appoint themselves experts
4-Other people blindly ignore them
5-Same self-appointed experts laugh at the blind ignorers
6-Those same blind ignorers then experience other things

On and On and On and we only get nowhere.

More people are interested in being "right" than they actually are interested in trying to find out what "right" is ..

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Jay wrote:
We're not talking about " .. I think the government is dodgy .. " types of beliefs here - but beliefs that are fundamental and are the foundations of peoples entire lives and so to name call and laugh at them for what they choose to believe is a form of psychological fascism. Badpsychics is rife with that and far from balanced. We wouldn't do it to a fanatical Muslim - we'd end 60 foot up in the air and spread out far and wide if we did (hey, thats just me stereotyping and piss taking people who don't believe what I do! :mrgreen: ) - so why do we do it to those who believe - as a religion - spiritualism?


Hi Jay. I'm very much of the opinion that it is fine for people to have fundamental, subjective belief systems within their lives. However, when they cross over from private into the public arena then there is a line that has been crossed. I'm very much a secularist on this one. Take the academy that was teaching creationism and got Tony Blair's nod of approval.

As for criticising the Islamic religion it is something we have done on the podcast ourselves, particularly when it comes to Sharia law. I see it as both morally and ethically wrong to stone or whip somebody because you have questioned the word of what is essentially a memoir mixed in with tales that are likely to be fictional. I also wonder why we are teaching our children in faith based schools ... it strikes me as both contradictory and plain wrong that we teach children science and then go and force subjective religion down their throats.

Jay wrote:
If science could explain "ghosts" or the experiences that people have right through the paranormal, then it would have by now .. if the believers could explain ghosts, spirits, religion in terms that science could understand, they would have by now.


There are two points to make here:

(a) Anal philosophical point. You can apply your reasoning to anything which has not been proven to scientifically exist. God, invisible pink unicorns and dear old Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot! Effectively, you cannot disprove the existence of anything as, at the extent of our knowledge, there are things that we do not know about. There just could be a God, ghost, invisible pink unicorn or celestial teapot somewhere in the same universe. By the same extent, should we believe in them until that scientific evidence arises? No, because logic dictates consistency and if we believe in ghosts we must also believe in all of those other things and pretty much anything anybody claims exists.

(b) There seems to be a huge assumption that science has not disproven the existence of ghosts. If you turn the equation upside down there is a significant and maybe overwhelming body of evidence that suggests science has explained them. How? There is not one big answer but, rather, a patchwork of pieces that combine. For example, I think psychology holds the bulk of the answers with sociology not far behind, particularly in regard to cultural contexting.


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:28 pm 
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Hiya, thanks for the replies.

I can understand where you are coming from with regards to the BP forums. There are members on the BP forums that are believers, some who claim to have mediumistic or psychic ability themselves so from that POV yes it is balanced. Obviously, it is a sceptical community so if you do go to those forums then most of the posts are going to be rational, probing and doubtful in nature. However, doubt is good - it's how we learn things.

The impresson I get is that you guys (and do correct me if I'm wrong) use methods (such as EMF meters, trigger objects, EVP) just in case they work despite there being a mountain of reasons against such methods working?

I have a friend in America who gets excited about orb photos because she claims "some orbs are paranormal in nature" and yet, if that were true it would be impossible to tell the different between those that were paranormal or "ghostly" in nature as she claims, and those that are simple caused by out of focus artefacts in the 'orb zone' of the camera lens in use.

So I guess my argument (for want of a better word) and confusion with your methodology and approach is that by playing it safe with the "just in case" card, how can you guys differenciate those recordings on dicatphone that are explainable (apophenia, autogain, interference) from those that could be "ghostly" in nature?

Surely, through process of elimination when using Occams Razor you would find it impossible to differenciate?

I am often questioned about the decision I made some time ago to cease the use of paranormal equipment or spiritual methods (seances, table tipping, glass divination etc.) on the case studies that my research team undertake. People ask me "but what if?" and "Why not do them, just in case?" andto begin with it did throw me. Perhaps I had made a mistake?

Then I realised that, actually, if we (WPR, my team) we going to use methods, just in case, we should then also be wearing tin foil hats just in case aliens are trying to probe our brains? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:01 am 
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Jay - you whole 'fence sitting position you choose for yourself is part of your 'agenda'.........as well you know hehehe!Dont take 'agenda' to mean something dodgy or necessarily to do with the paranormal....I'm taking about the agenda we all have as people, the thing which motivates us whatever that is and wherever it comes from based on whatever (not starting a discussion for that hehehe), but your 'neutral', or non dualistic approach, which I agree with (not sure your application of it is as er.....'neutral' as you think but thats just my personaL opinion as you know cos we've had conversations bout it etc) is as much a part of your 'agenda' as someones 'sceptical' approach, or 'extremist muslim' approach etc........anything and everything is cherry picked, your 'middle of the road' approach highlights perfectly what a 'product' of your environment and experiences, cherry picked perfectly for yourself and all that shite the same way all of our choices etc do!I happen to agree with your non dualistic stuff, but I aint under the illusion thats its any different to any other thing.........to me its more palatable and makes sense.........same as other things are more palatable and make sense to others.

As you know I agree with what your saying though, makes absolute sense to me, common sense and cant see anyo other way and baffles me when people dont at least see the logic of it...........absolutely agree 10000000% with this though:

''More people are interested in being "right" than they actually are interested in trying to find out what "right" is ..''

Root of all the shite involved in investigating, gets right on my fuckin tits,which is a shame as there are far more 'pleasenter' things which should be getting on my tits hehehehehe!!!

Trystan - Do you apply the same level of 'sceptacism' to 'science' as you do other areas?

''There is not one big answer but, rather, a patchwork of pieces that combine. For example, I think psychology holds the bulk of the answers with sociology not far behind, particularly in regard to cultural contexting.''

Yes yes yes yes!!!!!oh baby,now your talking hehehehehehehe!!!keep it coming...................yummy stuff!!!!!!!!!!

Cultural contexting aside (as much as is possible, I'm sure you'll get me here!) do you still think that, and if so what are your personal views on the relevance of 'subjectivity' in regards peoples 'interpretations' of thier 'ghost ' experiences in regards investigating the paranormal?

Hayley - yes, as a group we use the emf things, evp, trigger object things for many reasons, it will be good for Mark to get back from his hols next week and get in on this thread because he has differing opinions to both Jay and myself on this, also be good for you to get Bekkis opinions, as hers is from a unique perspective for many reasons. I'd also love to hear from others in NGi as to their opinions on these things because I'm not too sure who fully thinks what about what they do and the reasons they do it so be good to hear hehehe!Not sure I agree with the mountain of reason that they dont work.......depends on what exactly you mean by that, and also what you will 'take' from it etc.
Not also sure the 'in case they work' is er......correct or relevant......but I'll let someone else give thier opinion/explanation of that as mine is quite different from most in what I 'take' from these things data wise.
NGi is a mixed group of people though with differing opinions on things and we try to accomodate all this in what we do as a group,so that might explain it a bit better.Just because I personally dont necessarily agree/believe in the methods/things used doesnt make them wrong or right for the group, its up to the group to see how this works for them and let people come to thier own conclusions on these things..........always far better that way than 'telling' people!
I wouldhave liked to talk to you more actually about your group and what you do and your approach,sounds interesting from what you said on the phone!
I'm with you on the 'just in case' scenario you give hehehe, and if that was purely the case of why these methods were used in NGI I'd be dishing out the tin hats as mandatory hehehehe!In fact I might anyway, quite like the idea of that now hehehehehe!
Basically theres plenty of reasons why we as a group use these things.
Why not............theres so much 'information' that can be gotton from doing this............my approach is to investigate the investigators or people involved as much as the 'buildings/locations'...........its all relevant its all interesting, and the whole concept of observing people doing exactly what they feel they want to do and the ways they go about it, the words they use, the pauses they have,all of this type of thing is as relevant as just going in with a camera and observing..............
Record as much data as possible and let that data speak for itself...................

I'm seeing a connection with your ''in case they work'' mindset and Trystans anal philisophical 'point' hehehehehehehe!!!
Fuck that sounds dodgy hehehehehehe, I'd rephrase but leaving it like that is just so much more fun hehehehehehehe!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:53 am 
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:? Is anything right? Nothing can be proved, yet nothing can be disproved either.

I just spent an hour on the phone to my ex, Scientists tell me that that mobile phone works through waves of electricity in the air, but have you ever seen that electricity? It could be that I am telepathically sending the message to my friend, but scientists have forced thier beliefs that science is the truth on us, Just as christians want you to believe thier is a god.

Is anything real? or are we all a figurment of someone elses imagination, or even worse our own.

What exactly is reality, can it be proven, cos I have never seen any proof yet. We can forget a memory, just as easy as remembering one, so when we finally remember it, are we actually remembering it or are we coming up with something new that has just sprung into our mind and fooled us into thinking it is an old memory?

I anyone right, We are all conditioned to believe in something, whether that be science, ghosts, god, or little green men, who is to say that any of those beliefs are real and that we shouldnt question them.

Give god for example, (no offence intended to religiious people), But we are constantly been told that Jesus came to earth as the son of god and is the true son of god, Yet how many prophets have claimed that over the years and been sectioned for it, society has conditioned us to believe that in this day and age something like that would not happen, Yet many are willing to believe that it did happen years ago, Was Jesus really the son of god, or was he yet another sicko who slipped through the net and had people follow him, and believe he was supreme? how many profets have had follows who have committed thier life to thier prophet, even died for thier prophet? Look at suicide bombers they belive they are dying for a belief, who are we to say that they arnt.

Scientists say one thing, christians say another and people who belive in the paranormal say another, we can all believe somethign totally different, But can anything be actually proved 100%

You give me any statement that is believed to be fact and I could give you a counter argument against it, But whether you believe that argument is up to you, there is no such thing as proof.

confused? so am I?


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:05 am 
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Agreed Bekki!!!

The confusion bit it the easy bit though hehehehehe!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:16 am 
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Trystan wrote:
As for criticising the Islamic religion it is something we have done on the podcast ourselves, particularly when it comes to Sharia law. I see it as both morally and ethically wrong to stone or whip somebody because you have questioned the word of what is essentially a memoir mixed in with tales that are likely to be fictional. I also wonder why we are teaching our children in faith based schools ... it strikes me as both contradictory and plain wrong that we teach children science and then go and force subjective religion down their throats.


Ah .. now I ain't no fan of religion par se - no matter the type .. But, as a small digress - we still have to allow leeway for people to believe what they want to believe whether you or I think its wrong. We only think its wrong because we've been brought up within another set of brainwashed laws which call it wrong. Even accepting that - Christianity or Islam, even the more fanatical which includes Sharia, is neither right nor wrong. There isn't a universal law that states we shouldn't cut the hand off a burglar or subjugate women or blow up infidels - our opposition to these things are purely because we've been conditioned to think they are wrong. There is no universal law to say its wrong - its up to us as people to morally & collectively decide whats right or wrong. If people don't agree - then we don't have a right to force them. And, given the torture and deaths that Christianity has been responsible for over the centuries - I don't think us Christians hold the moral ground on the issue!! :mrgreen:

Its perfectly "natural" for a man to marry 100 wives in certain places in the world whereas in this country, we'd bang someone up in jail the moment he hit number 2. Who's right? We are when we look at it from our perspective - and only from our perspective, yet they are when we look at it from theres. Neither is right and neither is wrong - it just depends on our own individual perspective. But it doesn't mean the other guy is wrong just because we think he is - to him, he's just as right as what we think we are .. So who is right? Neither. Just different.

As a conclusion to that : We therefore have no right whatsoever - whatever the topic - to pass judgement on others because we're just as wrong about our view (to them) as they are about their own view (to us). And there ain't no universal law thats set into the very fabric of time / space which will decide once and for all who is right.

Everything is just one set of beliefs passed down through the generations - some take root in the many, some don't. When they come together and face off - we fight over it. Whether 1 on 1 or in a World War. And all because (A) thinks its right and (B) thinks, no, its actually right.

And the irony of it all is that neither is - they just both think they are.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:45 am 
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Hayley wrote:
The impression I get is that you guys (and do correct me if I'm wrong) use methods (such as EMF meters, trigger objects, EVP) just in case they work despite there being a mountain of reasons against such methods working?


I shall correct you! :mrgreen:

I discovered 90% of the way through the podcast that you and I were actually talking from the same viewpoint.

I've not used a piece of equipment to take readings (barring the odd EMF when no one else was around to do it) for a good 2 years or so. I might pick them up and stick them in my pocket if no-one else picks them up, but I gave up on gadgetry many moons back.

Whether its ghosts or something perfectly natural that these funny readings come from - I'd rather not have something artificial getting in the way. If a raging vortex from hell appears one night - I'd much rather just walk into it and experience it myself than film the damn thing or take a photo of it. They might show others what it looked like but my walking into it tells me what it WAS like ..

Its a whole other topic, perhaps, but I genuinely believe that gizmo's and gadgets interfere with whats going on rather than explain anything. The gizmo's and gadgets might be useful when we have the Ghost Locked In A Cage like I said in an earlier post and on the podcast - but until that happens we don't even have any idea what gizmo or gadget is worth using.

People run around with a gadget trying to take a reading that might not exist, from something that might have no relation to what they are looking for and, in fact, the thing they are looking for might not even exist itself to give the reading that has no relation to what they are looking for.

So I threw the gadgets away a long time ago and trust myself. As Trystan says up above - psychology and sociology are the pre-eminent sciences in all of this.

The physical sciences can't, for instance, prove that the conscious mind exists. It has no width or height, no weight or mass - no physical properties at all. We can't hold it in our hands and tell people to look - yet, undeniably, it exists albeit the evidence of it is indirect. Without it, I couldn't type these words - yet these words show I have a conscious mind.

So if we can't directly prove that a conscious mind exists even when its bound within the limitations set by a physical body - how the hell are those physical sciences going to prove a conscious mind exists when its no longer bound by the physical limitations placed upon it by a physical body as in the traditional perspective of what a ghost is.

Yet, through psychology and to a lesser degree sociology - we can at least try and understand that conscious mind (although again, that understanding is limited due to our own imprisonment with the 3D physical universe the physical sciences jail us within) and to try and discover any "power" held within it such as whether or not it could exist outside the physical body in the sense of a "ghost" or a "spirit" - although we might have to throw a little metaphysics in there for good measure at this stage of our understanding!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:35 pm 
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Hi Hayley and Trystan,

I wasnt wanting to stir up an Anti BP thread when I made my comments. Some of the posters on there do have good points, others just argue with equally invalid points because "they dont beleive in ghosts". Thats the side I got sick of.

I am totally anti "Woo" I dont tolerate people running around trying all this Wiccan, witchcraft, occult stuff to a point. I am also highly suspicious of anyone claiming mediumistic capabilities, even though i have direct family members who also claim this skill.

what I do beleive in is the paranormal, whether it turns out to be a ghost of (to quote jay) great Aunt mable or its a physical phenomena that is created when certain energies meet is whats open to interpretation. The data gathered by EMF metres, as long as its used to explain what the readings mean is wholly valid. Voices appearing on a digital recorder that were not heard or responded to at the time of recording are also evidence. Especially if its a direct response, If someone was to call out, is anyone here, can you tell me your name? and you get an EVP response, yes I am here my name is John. How likely is that to be a random radio broadcast that just fitted in with the question you asked?
So we should be looking at the possibility it was, but we also should look outside what Science can currently explain.

Jay likes to use the term flat earthers, and he is right, Science at one time said the earth wa flat and the sun revolved around the earth. It was data gathering and experimentation that proved this to be false. The guys at the time didnt know if the data they gathered was relevant or not, thats where the analysis and research comes into it.

You also dont need to be a qualified physicist to understand these things, do you think Gallileo was taught about the solar system when he made is theories public? no he was self taught.
What about Newton, was he an expert in gravity before he "discovered" it? How could he be?

I do respect you because I thought the show was good, I have only listened to one and had it not been for you interviewing Jay and Clare I may never have listened.
But my thoughts about bad Psychics stands, when their ultimate aim is to slag off and goad anyone who expresses a belief they have failed. they have some good aims, but when you look at the list of the forums topics its quite obvious where the admin sits and its firmly in the None believer section.
Whether they are right or wrong morally to expose fake Physics is not my place to say. I just think that they could do it with a more professional attitude and with more finesse.

I know my spelling is terrible :) and I apologise for that.
I try and sit on the fence, I believe in the paranormal because I am comfortable in the knowledge that Science doesnt know everything yet.
Look at the research into anti matter and dark matter, the recent clarification that Black holes do actually exist.
I am probably guilty of defending science too much on here at least, but I was brough up with science and studied Physics and Chemistry at A level standard. I have friends that have Phd's in astro physics, research Chemistry, Degrees in philosophy and quantum mechanics. So its easy to understand why I see science as the only way to provide answers.
Whilst i am not qualified to degree level, it in now way means I dont understand what they are talking about. I often have conversations with them about the paranormal and UFO's etc. Its usually a good topic of discussion especially when having a few beers.

I've had experiences on investigations that bothered me, on one I was physically shaken afterwards, but I have yet to experience anything I would say was a ghost or a haunting. Yes some unusual happeneing have occured and most were wonderfull. But I still walked away thinking, what could that have been? How can I explain that?

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Bekki wrote:
I just spent an hour on the phone to my ex, Scientists tell me that that mobile phone works through waves of electricity in the air, but have you ever seen that electricity? It could be that I am telepathically sending the message to my friend, but scientists have forced thier beliefs that science is the truth on us, Just as christians want you to believe thier is a god.


You do not need to be able to see the electricity to understand that it is there. This is something taught to children in key stage one at primary schools. Oh come on, are you being serious here?

As for science being truth? Science can only offer what is, effectively, the best of our knowledge at this present time. However, what is best? To work objectively and not accept the existence of things until objectively proven, or subjectively accept anything goes?

Bekki wrote:
What exactly is reality, can it be proven, cos I have never seen any proof yet.


It hurts if you punch a wall ... trust me!

I anyone right, We are all conditioned to believe in something, whether that be science, ghosts, god, or little green men, who is to say that any of those beliefs are real and that we shouldnt question them.

Bekki wrote:
Look at suicide bombers they belive they are dying for a belief, who are we to say that they arnt.


Well of course they ARE dying for a belief, because Islam is their belief. Doesn't mean it is right though.

Bekki wrote:
You give me any statement that is believed to be fact and I could give you a counter argument against it, But whether you believe that argument is up to you, there is no such thing as proof.


Okay, the second law of thermodynamics and perpetual motion machines! :wink:

pollen101 wrote:
Trystan - Do you apply the same level of 'sceptacism' to 'science' as you do other areas?


Skepticism should be applied to all areas of life. Good science has skepticism as an underpinning principle. If you conduct an experiment that has surprising results then chances are you will have someone read your article and attempt to reproduce your findings. They will check to see how tightly you are controlling your variables. This is why the likes of Chris French has found that telephone telepathy doesn't stand up whereas Rupert Sheldrake adopts less stringent controls and gets all kinds of weird and wonderful results.

pollen101 wrote:
Yes yes yes yes!!!!!oh baby,now your talking hehehehehehehe!!!keep it coming...................yummy stuff!!!!!!!!!!


Careful! :oops:

pollen101 wrote:
Cultural contexting aside (as much as is possible, I'm sure you'll get me here!) do you still think that, and if so what are your personal views on the relevance of 'subjectivity' in regards peoples 'interpretations' of thier 'ghost ' experiences in regards investigating the paranormal?


Senses give us the input and our mind does the interpretation. The quality of output depends on (a) quality of input (b) the knowledge of the brain performing the interpretation. Y'know, I recall a rather unfortunate event with somebody who used to investigate a lot. They were convinced a ghost kept walking in front of their nightshot cam corder because it wouldn't autofocus properly. On the other hand I knew that the camera would have immense difficulty attempting to focus on a completely blank wall.

Other thing to bear in mind is the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. It proves nothing in itself. Memories are also not instant snapshots of what occurred. Rather, they are our attempted reconstructions of events. These memories can be prone to huge errors (ask Hayley about her word experiment at Weird 09).

jay wrote:
So if we can't directly prove that a conscious mind exists even when its bound within the limitations set by a physical body - how the hell are those physical sciences going to prove a conscious mind exists when its no longer bound by the physical limitations placed upon it by a physical body as in the traditional perspective of what a ghost is.


(a) We may not be able to see the conscious mind but tests exist which can show the existence of what we call consciousness.

(b) You are taking a huge leap of faith by suggesting there may be a point when the conscious mind is able to depart a body. Consider there is absolutely no evidence to show that consciousness exists outside of living physical organisms.

jay wrote:
We therefore have no right whatsoever - whatever the topic - to pass judgement on others because we're just as wrong about our view (to them) as they are about their own view (to us). And there ain't no universal law thats set into the very fabric of time / space which will decide once and for all who is right.


Yes, morals are not bound by universal laws but Richard Dawkins showed quite effectively that we do not need to take our morals from any godhead. Through one way or another ALL human societies attempt to possess some form of social cohesion. Without this cohesion you are not in a situation where you can effectively keep producing children and raise them through to adulthood to keep the reproductive cycle going.

Additionally, is it more preferable to build your morals upon a factual understanding (I won't push you under a train because I know it will cause you severe harm) or on the word of some ridiculous tract of text (I will kill you because you do not believe in the holy book)? On a less extreme scale, on my Fijian island it is cold. It is a Sunday. I would like to wear trousers to keep myself warm, but the priest has banned it because it goes against the word of the holy book. Ridiculous!

As such I think we are fully able to pass moral judgment on faith based beliefs. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:23 pm 
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Anth wrote:
The data gathered by EMF metres, as long as its used to explain what the readings mean is wholly valid.


Hi Anth. But what is this info valid for? You may have this data but what is it data for? Why is it evidence of ghosts any more than for aliens, misuse of equipment, faulty wiring of even an internally caused anomalous reading?

Anth wrote:
Voices appearing on a digital recorder that were not heard or responded to at the time of recording are also evidence.


It ain't necessarily so. Even if we take Radio Frequency Interference out of the equation, consider the auto gain circuit, pareidolia, pollution from ambient noise etc.

Anth wrote:
Especially if its a direct response,
Quote:

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, most likely! EVP is a wonderful area for potentially scientific research yet proponents of it never, ever go down that route.

Anth wrote:
Jay likes to use the term flat earthers, and he is right, Science at one time said the earth wa flat and the sun revolved around the earth. It was data gathering and experimentation that proved this to be false. The guys at the time didnt know if the data they gathered was relevant or not, thats where the analysis and research comes into it. You also dont need to be a qualified physicist to understand these things, do you think Gallileo was taught about the solar system when he made is theories public? no he was self taught.
What about Newton, was he an expert in gravity before he "discovered" it? How could he be?


I think you are missing a trick here. Scientific experiments are based on a hypothesis. Post experiment, the results are analysed to see if they fit or do not fit with the hypothesis. From this a scientific theory (as opposed to plain old theory) is developed to explain this.

By contrast how will a bunch of readings on equipment designed to connect electrical wiring going show the existence of ghosts?

Anth wrote:
Whether they are right or wrong morally to expose fake Physics is not my place to say. I just think that they could do it with a more professional attitude and with more finesse.


BP gets a lot of detractors, as does our podcast. I am always philosophical about such criticism: you can't please all of the people all of the time!

Anth wrote:
I believe in the paranormal because I am comfortable in the knowledge that Science doesnt know everything yet.Look at the research into anti matter and dark matter, the recent clarification that Black holes do actually exist.


A lot of people share that opinion but it strikes me like an extended Pascal's Wager ... you may as well believe in every god in the chance they do exist.

Anth wrote:
I am probably guilty of defending science too much on here at least, but I was brough up with science and studied Physics and Chemistry at A level standard. I have friends that have Phd's in astro physics, research Chemistry, Degrees in philosophy and quantum mechanics. So its easy to understand why I see science as the only way to provide answers.


Yet at the same time you prefer to put issues of faith over science.

Anth wrote:
I've had experiences on investigations that bothered me, on one I was physically shaken afterwards, but I have yet to experience anything I would say was a ghost or a haunting. Yes some unusual happeneing have occured and most were wonderfull. But I still walked away thinking, what could that have been? How can I explain that?


Simple ... we are all limited by our personal knowledge and the manner in which we interpret events. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Trystan you made the typical BP mistake.

Not once did I say an EMF meter would reveal a ghost, I said as the data collected is explained. I.E we found an EMF field of Value XYZ at this point of the location. I could easily say we took a litmus test of moisture at this location and it was acidic, we can question the relvance, but when we dont know what we are looking for or how to discover it, in theory ALL data is relevant.

Its like using a thermometer, its used to check if theres been a temperature change. If the temperature falls by several degrees in an 1m squared area its an anomoly.

If you were to get huge EMF readings in a building with no electricity, it would certainly warrent further investigation.


Auto gain in voice recorders is a possible explanation, yet if the voice is male and all present are female, how would make it an explanation? I said we have to consider all possibilities not dismiss it immedaitly.


Hypothesis: There may be an existence beyond what we currently know or can explain. this existance could be electrical energy, magnetic energy or an apparition.

method:
We shall use EMF meters to detect for any changing or moving Electro magnetic Fields, we shall search for anomolous magentic reading and we shall take hours of video and hundreds of still to document our investigation

Results:
well you can go anywhere here cant you?
Whats unscientific about that? We go to a place and gather data we store that data and review it. predictably we get very little in the way of anomolies. Some will declare an Orb as proof of a ghost, usually I will laugh at them. But if we pick up an EVP we can listen to it, if its clear and is, as mentioned previously, a male voice in an all female investigation, in a secure place with no trespasses, we can assume its not auto gain. We then need to look into various other possibilities, whatever is left no matter how unlikely will be the correct result for the data and abilities we currently have.

Bad Psychics goads people into taking action against them, they try and humiliate, they are devious and generally take the piss. Sooner or later they will get their come uppance because they will do it to the wrong person who will take them to the cleaners. Its not big, its not clever and its not professional.

I dont beleive in religion, in a god however its slightly different, if I take god to be the creator of the universe, then God can exist, God can be the lump of matter that exploded in the big bang, God does not have to be a being of supernatural origin. God is a creator.

You say I prefer the issue of faith, I dont have faith, least of all in my fellow man. I dont believe blindly, Yes I may say i believe in god, but not the god in the religious sense, I abhore all religion. I dont beleive science is right all the time everytime. It's a book that is still being written. When it proves itself wrong it goes back and makes corrections. Those corrections can have a significant impact on anything coming after them and anything not yet discovered. belief doesnt really come into it, I accept theres a possibility that there may be somehting beyond the realms of normal scientific understanding, therefor its correctly labelled paranormal. It does not mean I beleive in ghosts, I have already tried to explain that one.

I think what sets me asside from some others is that I really dont care if ghosts exist, I am looking for explanations for things that I and others cannot explain. Just like Newton did when he wanted to know how the apple fell from the tree. I have no vested interest in the existence of ghosts or the disproval of the existence of ghosts. However that said, there will ALWAYS be the Paranormal, Science cannot and will not explain everything. The universe is just too big and diverse.

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Trystan wrote:
(a) We may not be able to see the conscious mind but tests exist which can show the existence of what we call consciousness.


Ahh .. but these tests don't directly show the existence of consciousness - they show only the indirect effects of it.

I'll use an example above used by Anth - Black Holes. We can only observe the indirect effects of what we think is a Black Hole on local astronomical bodies. It doesn't mean it IS what we define as a Black Hole - only our "best guess" given our current understanding of mass / gravity etc etc

There ain't no direct physical evidence of it and so therefore, using the rule of whats good for the goose is good for the gander, we have to be sceptical and poo-poo the idea until direct physical evidence exists.

Likewise, consciousness - we can only record the indirect effects of what we would call consciousness - and therefore once more employing the WGFTGIGFTG rule - there is no direct physical evidence, ergo, we're sceptical of it and poo-poo the idea of the woo-woo notion of consciousness. :mrgreen:

But of course - we use a different set of made-up rules when its something we can all observe because the conception of plausibility exists.

When the world was flat this was so because it was the most plausible idea. How, my deary, would the people on bottom stay on if it was round? Things naturally fall down, so people on the bottom of a round world would fall down also and away from the surface - they would be, afterall, under us.

Of course, the most plausible idea was that it was flat - even what we observed led us to believe it was flat .. everywhere we looked it was flat and not curved or spherical (despite what some Greeks worked out).

Who would have thought that some magical, mysterious and wholly invisible force existed that stuck us to the surface like we were wearing gummy-boots? Bloody woo-woos and their magical hocus pocus, huh!! :wink:

Of course, Science invented gravity and the notion of being held to a body of mass never existed before Newton came along - before that we must of just floated about like feathers in a breeze .. (ok, that was a joke for those that missed it!!).

It raises the question tho : Why does something only exist when science says so? Who made science judge, jury and executioner? Are we to completely ignore everything we experience until it appears in New Scientist?

Anyway, when something exists that we can all observe - we use a different set of rules.

Of course a Black Hole exists even tho we have no direct physical evidence of it but merely indirect action from distance. Science says so. And - Duh! - of course consciousness exists, it's obvious ain't it? Don't need direct physical evidence of that either .. and yes, what was once a magical, mysterious and wholly invisible force exists - its Gravity - Newton said so and <slaps forehead> - We all feel it everyday - bloody obvious ..

But then the other rule set kicks in when its not something we experience everyday ..

If there is one set of conclusions I'm heading towards in regards of all this paranormal malarky, they are :

  • Its something that only seems to happen in certain places
  • Its something that only seems to happen at certain times
  • Its something tha only seems to happen under certain circumstances
  • And possibly - most importantly perhaps - something that only seems to happen to certain people.

But, we hear the cry goes up, thats not very scientific because it means I can't recreate experiements in my shiny new lab!

Well, again, duh! Thats a bloody given! Our friggen labs aren't haunted!

If the paranormal exists then that problem science faces is not the fault of Great Aunt Mable. She's not a molecule in a petri dish. Thats one of the limitations that science places upon itself .. Why not do what we all have to do in life when something comes about we weren't prepared for ... Like adapt?

But we don't do that. We use another set of rules instead :

Ahh ... there is no direct physical evidence and its not something that we can observe in all locations, at all times, under all conditions and, importantly, by all people .. therefore, we conclude, they are all woo-woo

... ermm .. despite the fact it meets the same criteria as Black Holes and Consciousness and no doubt many other "mysteries" deemed by science to be a worthy research program .. other than, possibly, the last of those conclusions up above.

So, when we ALL can't observe these things, even if we bothered looking, we use a different set of rules to define whats acceptable / possible / plausible.

You mentioned Psychology and Sociology up above .. you're right - but maybe not for the right reason.

Quote:
(b) You are taking a huge leap of faith by suggesting there may be a point when the conscious mind is able to depart a body. Consider there is absolutely no evidence to show that consciousness exists outside of living physical organisms.


And like I said above - there is absolutely no (direct) evidence to show that consciousness exists INSIDE of a living physical organism, either - but we accept that without question.

If I go out on a ghost investigation tonight - and then come back on here tomorrow telling everyone that I saw a ghost and did naughties with it - people would call me mad, insane, a woo-woo, deluded etc etc ...

Part of why this would happen is because people would tell me : "Ohhhh .. the mind is a very powerful thing and can play tricks on us .. "

Yes, thats true - but how come the mind is a "very powerful thing" when it suits, yet is no where near powerful enough to exist outside of a physical organism when it doesn't suit?

Who drew the line in the sand of which says : "ohh yeah .. powerful mind" .. and "Pfft .. behave"? Does a line exist? Have we mastered the understanding of the brain enough to know what its capabilities are or aren't? No. And we know even less about consciousness (we're assuming our guesses here to its existence are accurate).

So how can we place a limit on it when it suits? It seems its boundaries continue to get pushed further and further to explain away what people experience with seemingly no limit - yet, we then suddenly set a limit on it when the same argument is used (" .. the power of the mind.. ") to claim these experiences could actually be real.

Who controls that limit? Is there a limit? Or, is there only a limit when it falls within what we are comfortable with?

We've done tests tho. People hallucinate. Its been proven.

I've never been tested. I would hazard a guess that nobody on this forum has been tested either. So how can we apply the results of a test upon a whole population of people (living and dead) when only the tiniest fraction of those people have been tested?

All those test suggest is a "norm". Thats all. But science itself through genetics tells us of mutation. Its how we got to where we are today.

Who'd have thought, billions of years ago, that some primordial soup would one day, throughg mutation, have enough gumption to join together and reproduce .. Who'd have thought the descendats of that soup-porn would form a skeleton, form muscle, develop a brain and senses, intelligence, make tools, invent a universal force, build an aeroplane, invent a spaceship and go to the moon. Who'd have thought even 20 years ago that a man would run 100 meters in 9.58 seconds ..

As mutations occur - we improve .. we grow in "power". But all we talk about are physical mutations - because we're stuck in a 3D physical world controlled by 3D physcial sciences - and ignore mental / mind / consciousness "mutations".

We even accept moral "mutations" - because we can all observe them by watching peoples behaviour. But "mutations" that occur in the mind and, in most cases, are unobserable by the masses? Nah - you must be mad and deluded .. just hallucinating, mate

No evidence for an external consciousness? I agree .. But then, maybe we just missed it because we're so damned intent on measuring "things" with a ruler ..

Again, you're right - psychology and sociology - but I would again suggest right but for the wrong reasons ..

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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:18 am 
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Trystan wrote:
You do not need to be able to see the electricity to understand that it is there. This is something taught to children in key stage one at primary schools. Oh come on, are you being serious here?

Actually yes I am deadly serious, everything taught in schools is not always provable, They teach religious studies in schools too, But then tell us its up to us to make our minds up. Science is just yet another conditioned belief, Give the dilema of who created the world.

God?
The idea of a superior being, creating all this in seven days, some people laugh at that, I cant see the logicality of that just like I cant see the logicality of
The Big Blast?
If this is how the world was created where did the substances that caused the big blast come from in the first place? Who created the atmospher, can science take us right back and give us solid proof as to where the very first molicule of whatever it was was formed and how it was formed. yes they can say there was a big bang, but what exactly was there to go bang in the first place, and where did that come from.

As for science being truth? Science can only offer what is, effectively, the best of our knowledge at this present time. However, what is best? To work objectively and not accept the existence of things until objectively proven, or subjectively accept anything goes?

Who is to say that this IS the best of our knowledge, Christians believe that is to the best of thier knowledge,

It hurts if you punch a wall ... trust me!

Another perseption.... We are conditioned to believe that it hurts therefore it does, I shattered my leg in seven places, But at the time I wasnt thinking about what I was doing and wasnt even aware of how much damage had been done, I can honestly say i was not even aware of any pain until a witness said i should be in agony, then I began to feel it, because they had put that seed of thought in my mind. Oh and yes I have punched walls, door, headbutted things, I have aspergers and no it dosnt always hurt, it hurts when i believe it hurts and that is often conditioned by other people telling me it hurts or should hurt. Pain is just a perseption, I would love to work out how to block that out totally and have actually succeeded in doing that when i have absolutely needed it.

I anyone right, We are all conditioned to believe in something, whether that be science, ghosts, god, or little green men, who is to say that any of those beliefs are real and that we shouldnt question them.

Yes bang on, But why should science be as yuo quoted above "To the best of our knowledge", we know just as little about science as we do about religion and little green men, it isnt fair to say one overrides the other unless there is solid proof.

Look at suicide bombers they belive they are dying for a belief, who are we to say that they arnt.


Well of course they ARE dying for a belief, because Islam is their belief. Doesn't mean it is right though.

As it also dosnt mean that science is right or religion in general is right, or anything else for that matter.

Okay, the second law of thermodynamics and perpetual motion machines! :wink:

Too many long words say it in english and Ill give you an argument....


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 Post subject: Re: NGI on Righteous Indignation Podcast
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:14 am 
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Anth wrote:
Trystan you made the typical BP mistake. Not once did I say an EMF meter would reveal a ghost, I said as the data collected is explained. I.E we found an EMF field of Value XYZ at this point of the location. I could easily say we took a litmus test of moisture at this location and it was acidic, we can question the relvance, but when we dont know what we are looking for or how to discover it, in theory ALL data is relevant.


You're missing my point. Let me put it another way ... what good is the data collected by the EMF meter if it is (a) collected haphazardly and (b) you have absolutely no idea what it is of use for? Why not also collect data of how many blades of grass are in an area or the distribution of various types of energy saving lightbulbs? You can collect data until the cows come home but if it is in random conditions and cannot be applied to anything it is worthless.

Anth wrote:
If you were to get huge EMF readings in a building with no electricity, it would certainly warrent further investigation.


If we assume the EMF meter is not able to pick up naturally occurring fields or those caused by mechanical vibration. Funnily enough I have seen this occur. It turned out the device in question was faulty.

Anth wrote:
Auto gain in voice recorders is a possible explanation, yet if the voice is male and all present are female, how would make it an explanation? I said we have to consider all possibilities not dismiss it immedaitly.


RFI, pareidolia, VTE. The latter two are more difficult to control against. At least do the soundproofing and radio frequency shielding.

Anth wrote:
Hypothesis: There may be an existence beyond what we currently know or can explain. this existance could be electrical energy, magnetic energy or an apparition.

method:
We shall use EMF meters to detect for any changing or moving Electro magnetic Fields, we shall search for anomolous magentic reading and we shall take hours of video and hundreds of still to document our investigation

Results:
well you can go anywhere here cant you?
Whats unscientific about that?


Umm. Where do I start? First, the logic: Let us say you do detect anomalous readings, how do you therefore jump to the conclusion that this therefore relates to an existence beyond what we currently know or explain? Secondly, how are you controlling variables? Finally, what about a control study?

Anth wrote:
Some will declare an Orb as proof of a ghost, usually I will laugh at them. But if we pick up an EVP we can listen to it, if its clear and is, as mentioned previously, a male voice in an all female investigation, in a secure place with no trespasses, we can assume its not auto gain. We then need to look into various other possibilities, whatever is left no matter how unlikely will be the correct result for the data and abilities we currently have.


Yes, the potential causes outlined above. Why not actually do proper scientific experimentation as opposed to flawed pseudoscientific methodology which introduces another level of subjectivity? This is how the likes of Rupert Sheldrake get positive results. It isn't science. It is pseudoscience.

Anth wrote:
Bad Psychics goads people into taking action against them, they try and humiliate, they are devious and generally take the piss. Sooner or later they will get their come uppance because they will do it to the wrong person who will take them to the cleaners. Its not big, its not clever and its not professional. I dont beleive in religion, in a god however its slightly different, if I take god to be the creator of the universe, then God can exist, God can be the lump of matter that exploded in the big bang, God does not have to be a being of supernatural origin. God is a creator.


If you have a problem with BadPsychics or BadGhosts take it up with Jon or Bob respectively. :wink:


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