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doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:33 am

The thing about Paganism is that it isn't a belief 'system' as such. People in different areas would have had their own belief systems that related to the region they lived. They would use it to make sense of the world around them. This would include the beliefs of any imigrants such as Vikings etc. The Gods of Norse mythology are often used in Pagan rituals for example. So I wouldn't say that all Pagans followed the same 'belief system' but the still come under the 'catch all' term of Pagan. Paganism is usually polytheistic religion.

What do you think the people believed in in pre-christian times Claire?
And why have you got an axe to grind with Pagans?

pollen101 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:34 pm **Posts:** 9324

I dont especially know Mark, the reason I wanted to know specifically what your exact 'take' on paganism was is that so fuckin many people I've spoken to seem to be of the belief that pre christianity everyone lived in little cosy groups and danced round stones and sang praises to the sun and the moon etc and life was so good and beautiful and the answer to all lifes shit now would to be to go 'back' to those times.....which I see very little evidence for of actually being like that yet it seems quite a lot of seemingly intelligent people have a 'fight and die' attitude over this, which baffles me....and often its the pagany/wiccan types who are doing it.
No axe to grind with 'pagans' in general, just the majority of those who i've met (many...) seem to be full of strange ideas which when asked about they go off into rants.....similar to many other aspects of life etc, just the 'pagans' are relevenat to this thread as its come up etc!
I dont put you in that 'band' at all Mark, hence why I was confused with that you were saying and just wanted clarification etc.
I have no issue with the thing as a whole etc, I just piss about with and stereotype things....but I do the same with the vegan police and certain AR people too........anything where it seems people are more into the 'image' of things over the actual thing itself if that make sense........

Get you totally when you say:
''The thing about Paganism is that it isn't a belief 'system' as such. People in different areas would have had their own belief systems that related to the region they lived. They would use it to make sense of the world around them.''
If thats the case the science is just the latest big branch of paganism...hence why I say its the greatest new religion of our time........

No idea what people believe d in pre christian times especially....although it seems that representational aspects and symbolism was used same as it is now.......I see no difference to christianity or judaism or science of the aztecs/egyptions/ etc etc etc just different applications of the same thing with each 'group' beleiving that thier way is the best way for the, right or wrong irrelevent....the concequences are the results of the applications of all.....all the same tho.
Fuck knows tho Mark!

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:15 pm

I'm glad you sort of understand what I am saying and don't put me in 'that bracket'. I can't stand people who are all about 'image' instead of the actual thing itself. I find this a lot in goth scene as well. Tillie was a vegan for a few years so I understand about the vegan police too.

I totally agree that science is a religion. Could it be classed as a form of neo-paganism, I'm not sure. It certainly comes at things from the same angle but it totally does away with the god/goddess aspect which to me is very much a part of paganism.

One to debate I'm sure.

pollen101 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:34 pm **Posts:** 9324

oh yes indeedy!

Jay · **Joined:** Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:28 pm **Posts:** 10488

Somebody was classed as a Pagan if they weren't part of any centrally organised religion. And in truth - the word Pagan never existed at the time when everyone was a "Pagan" .. it actually began life as a derogatory term used by Christians (can't remember what it means) years later. But basically, anyone who worshipped a pantheon of Gods as opposed to the one true God, was a Pagan. Doesn't matter who or what those Gods were .. they're worshippers, were pagan.

Forget all this love, happiness and hippy shit too. Those who were called Pagan were as brutal and vicious as anyone and didn't give a shit about Mother Earth .. that was just the upper echelons of society - the priests and priestesses.

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:38 pm

Jay wrote:

Those who were called Pagan were as brutal and vicious as anyone and didn't give a shit about Mother Earth .. that was just the upper echelons of society - the priests and priestesses.

In truth I think I was a bit of both.

When Pagan wasn't deemed derogatory enough they went and invented 'Heathen' too.

pollen101 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:34 pm **Posts:** 9324

totally agreed Jay.
Yuk. Dont like saying that.
But I do.
Agree that is!
Yuk.........

Jay · **Joined:** Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:28 pm **Posts:** 10488

doktor_phibes wrote:

In truth I think I was a bit of both.

When Pagan wasn't deemed derogatory enough they went and invented 'Heathen' too.

Not really .. its always been the Elite of a society who have the freedom to excercise their whims - the rest of the peasants just get forced along with it. When your daily existence is about surviving - either finding food to eat or dodging some brutal pagans battleaxe - the last thing on your mind are the pixies and tree fairies ......

Jay · **Joined:** Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:28 pm **Posts:** 10488

pollen101 wrote:

totally agreed Jay.
Yuk. Dont like saying that.
But I do.
Agree that is!
Yuk.........

You love it really .........

:mrgreen:

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:45 pm

I've no doubt that people do what they need to survive but it doesn't necessarily make you vicious and brutal. What about all the healers and village wise women?

Jay · **Joined:** Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:28 pm **Posts:** 10488

There are always exceptions to the rule, of course ..but brutal death and killing was a way of life .. you only have to look at the peace loving, earth loving, man and animal loving Pagans (druids) with the Wicca Man "games" ..

The Romans - technically Pagan - may have been one of the most enlightened and civilised people of their time - but they were almost the most brutal too. Shall we go to the movies? The Pub? Or go and see some Christians torn apart by lions .....? Decisions! :mrgreen:

Ok .. it was a different time .. that was just part of life whether people were Pagans or Christians .. but its only our interpretation (using todays morals) that paints the picture of todays Pagan.

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:56 pm

Well you're probably right Jay, but that's what I love about Paganism. There is no black and white and you can make it whatever you want it to be.

I'm not about to argue about whether there is a God and a Goddess, or whether Magick really works, because in truth I haven't a clue. What paginsim/wicca does for me is that it allows me to express my spiritual side in a way that kind of makes sense in my own little world.

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:57 pm

Oh and Jay, It's 'Wicker Man', not 'Wicca Man'.

Jay · **Joined:** Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:28 pm **Posts:** 10488

Oooooooooooooooooooohhhhh ... Wicker Man is it .. Oooooooooooooooooohhh ..

:wink:

That previously used word was on my mind .. honest .. :mrgreen:

pollen101 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:34 pm **Posts:** 9324

''You love it really ......... ''

wank on Jay.............

Its the old 'pyramid' scale thing which people are obsessed with innit, the old 'relite' at the top 'peasants' at the bottom.........interesting how pyramids get used to represent all sorts..........maybe the pyramids at Giza are just representational of this to reinforce this message/system always hehehehehehe!!!

People are people are people are people..........same old basic 'requirements' whatever age culture country belief system etcetcetc......same old story - get something into the 'majority' (or certainly make it seem that way) and anything goes no matter what....make it 'normal' and its in regardless of brutality or cruelty or whatever.

Interesting Mark......thats what everyones lives do, not everyone would see it that way and not everyone would say it that way but basically thats what we all do innit........we pick our 'poison' so to speak for whatever reasons then its game off!

doktor_phibes · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:15 pm

Yes I couldn't agree more, we should all be free the choose what we want. It's only when people start telling others that there way is the right way is when the trouble starts.

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